Practice of Setrap

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qwerty13
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Practice of Setrap

Post by qwerty13 »

Hello everyone

First of all, I am not here to pull rug under someones feet, so if you have contradicting opinion about what I am about to say, no hard feelings, I respect your opinion and thats it.

So last year around this time I found and got inspired about the practice of Dharmapala Setrap. The material I got from Tsem Tulkus website. It is clearly stated there, that Setrap is no different from Amitabha and he is elightened buddha who appears in worldly form. I have practiced this protector according to Tsem tulku`s advice (tea offering, mantra recitation) and have felt great connection to this protector. I
However, recently I was going through old threads ( like here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 18&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) on dharmawheel and found that Jkhedrup was telling us that according to his Geshe and Dalai Lama, buddhas never manifest through oracles.And Setrap sometimes gives advice through oracle.

So the thing is that these oracle dharmapalas are worldly, but nevertheless very high level. Very high level since Dalai Lama is using Nechung for his decision making. But not Buddhas.

I have propitiated Setrap, but now that I discovered that he is not buddha -very high level being though- I thought that mayby I should only rely on enlightened protectors. I am not telling you that I felt Setraps practice useless, no not at all. I think that he`s practice is extremely useful and powerful, and that Setrap is completely reliable protector. He has wisdom. But even though I say this, I think its still better to rely only on perfectly enlightened buddhas.

But here`s the question: Do I create bad Karma if I now stop practicing this protector? Mind you, I have not received any initiation or transmission regarding this protector. Neither has no lama personally told me to do this practice. But since this deity`s nature is bit different to others (he is "closer" to us, since he is in more worldly form) and getting connection to this deity through prayer is easier, could there be bad karma if one stops propitiating Setrap? No, I am not expecting that Setrap will punish me somehow. The reasoning is that I have relied on the deity previously, and he has helped me, thus there is a positive karmic link.If I now stop practicing him, that link is weakened, and thus having negative outcomes? The way I see it is that once you rely on this deity, you have to keep going. So its kinda like having samaya. Even though I dont have initiation.

I give you more backround. Once I started to seriously think about dropping this pratice I felt pain around my heart area and various other locations in my body. Nothing very serious, but I really felt for a moment that everything is not right. Its not like little painfull tingling, but worse, more like something turning painfully couple of times inside my heart area. I had to stop for a moment to let the feeling go away. After the pain went away, I felt myself little weak for a couple of minutes. But after that i started to feel that I am returning to "normal" state. This may not be entirely related, but Alexander Brezin says in his web archive that if one disparages ones teacher or breaks up with him/her in a negative way (negative way: not keeping polite distance, but just running away with remorse) then it can cause autoimmunological diseases,mental and physical suffering. So that came to my mind when I was feeling these symptoms.

Mayby this all sounds stupid to you but I really feel that I need to ask as I know that there are very experienced pratitioners here who possibly can give some thoughts on this.

I should probably ask this from Tsem Rinpoches pastors too, and see what comes up.
Who should we turn to for refuge? We should seek refuge in the Buddha. He is the one we weep before
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by DGA »

I wouldn't bother with Tsem's people.

This thread contains many relevant posts (onto the next page)

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... =60#p21176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The short version: Setrap is a worldly being, and therefore not a source of refuge--not a Buddha, as Tsem's people seem to claim. And if you wanted to practice this worldly protector, you'd need initiation from a qualified master anyway.
Last edited by DGA on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited for diction
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by DGA »

Also, as a reminder to all, here is a relevant passage from our Terms of Service:
History has shown discussions about Shugden/Dolgyal on websites such as this one result in flame wars. The management has taken a decision not to allow reference to or any discussion/debate of, and that means from all sides, all things Shugden/Dolgyal including: Teachers, monasteries, associated organizations, images, audio/video, written publications etc.
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Malcolm
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Malcolm »

qwerty13 wrote:

I give you more backround. Once I started to seriously think about dropping this pratice I felt pain around my heart area and various other locations in my body. Nothing very serious, but I really felt for a moment that everything is not right. Its not like little painfull tingling, but worse, more like something turning painfully couple of times inside my heart area. I had to stop for a moment to let the feeling go away. After the pain went away, I felt myself little weak for a couple of minutes. But after that i started to feel that I am returning to "normal" state. This may not be entirely related, but Alexander Brezin says in his web archive that if one disparages ones teacher or breaks up with him/her in a negative way (negative way: not keeping polite distance, but just running away with remorse) then it can cause autoimmunological diseases,mental and physical suffering. So that came to my mind when I was feeling these symptoms.
.
Setrap is a gyalpo. People who do Gyalpo practices often suffer from anxiety, paranoia and in particular, snying rlung.

M
"Death stands before all who are born."
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qwerty13
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by qwerty13 »

Jikan wrote:
And if you wanted to practice this worldly protector, you'd need initiation from a qualified master anyway.
Yeah, this is probably a really good point. Also, as I have once read from Alex Berzins archives, one normally needs a initiation like Yamantaka, so that one can self-generate as this deity and give orders to the protector.

I said in the opening message that I am not expecting Setrap to punish me, but I gave more thought to this, and I am right now bit concerned.

Well, I keep you posted.
Who should we turn to for refuge? We should seek refuge in the Buddha. He is the one we weep before
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by DGA »

It would be a great idea for you to find and speak with a truly qualified master of Vajrayana Buddhism about this very issue. I think there are others here at DharmaWheel who can help you find such a master. There may be others who can give more accurate, and more specific guidance.
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lorem
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by lorem »

Oops TOS

Would follow the example of His Holiness.

Seen many times do not need initiation to practice Setrap Protector. (Although I guess that is up for debate.)

An idea: Make an offering and remind him of his vows to Guru Rinpoche and the other lineage lamas. Recite verses on impermanence and emptiness and thank him. When parting ways if no vows--

Ultimately a lama would be the one to ask. It is which lama is the question to ask the question to.

The behavior towards guru I may be able to attest to but kind of think that was more Mahakala or Kshetrapala and was breaking a vow.
Last edited by lorem on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Losal Samten »

Dorje Drolo, Guru Dragphur and Garuda are especially good for provocations from the 8 classes.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Konchog1 »

Worldly or not is an interesting issue.

Some say Kalarupa is worldly, others say otherwise.

Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.

As for oracles, I have heard the same. I have also heard that worldly protectors like Pehar don't have oracles because they are too powerful, and entering a medium's body would kill the person.

Very confusing.

As for Setrap, I don't know what the official position would be but from the point of view of being a nice person, I would recommend making a final grand offering with yourself as the deity. Thank Setrap for his blessings and explain why you won't be relying on him in the future.

EDIT:
Malcolm wrote:
qwerty13 wrote:
I give you more backround. Once I started to seriously think about dropping this pratice I felt pain around my heart area and various other locations in my body. Nothing very serious, but I really felt for a moment that everything is not right. Its not like little painfull tingling, but worse, more like something turning painfully couple of times inside my heart area. I had to stop for a moment to let the feeling go away. After the pain went away, I felt myself little weak for a couple of minutes. But after that i started to feel that I am returning to "normal" state. This may not be entirely related, but Alexander Brezin says in his web archive that if one disparages ones teacher or breaks up with him/her in a negative way (negative way: not keeping polite distance, but just running away with remorse) then it can cause autoimmunological diseases,mental and physical suffering. So that came to my mind when I was feeling these symptoms.
.
Setrap is a gyalpo. People who do Gyalpo practices often suffer from anxiety, paranoia and in particular, snying rlung.

M
CHNN says that too, from personal experience. Are there similar side effects with protectors who are Yakshas, Mamos, Dakinis etc?
Last edited by Konchog1 on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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lorem
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by lorem »

:good: A nice person. I like that.
I should be meditating.
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lorem
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by lorem »

Konchog1 wrote:Some say Kalarupa is worldly, others say otherwise.

Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.

As for oracles, I have heard the same. I have also heard that worldly protectors like Pehar don't have oracles because they are too powerful, and entering a medium's body would kill the person.
Damchen is Manjushri.
Palden Lhamo is 10th level bodhisattva
Nechung Oracle is Pehar.

EDIT: the heart feeling and stuff never experienced anything like you described so would be better to seek a lama to consult if you were concerned.
Last edited by lorem on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I should be meditating.
Malcolm
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog1 wrote:Worldly or not is an interesting issue.

Some say Kalarupa is worldly, others say otherwise.
Kalarupa is a worldly manifestation of Yamantaka.
Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.
Śrī Devi is a wisdom protector.
As for oracles, I have heard the same. I have also heard that worldly protectors like Pehar don't have oracles because they are too powerful, and entering a medium's body would kill the person.
Pehar has oracles.

Very confusing.
As for Setrap,
Setrap has an oracle, therefore, worldly. Setrap was introduced by Nyan Lotsawa, it is a new school protector, no relationship nor samaya with Guru Rinpoche.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Konchog1 »

lorem wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Some say Kalarupa is worldly, others say otherwise.

Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.

As for oracles, I have heard the same. I have also heard that worldly protectors like Pehar don't have oracles because they are too powerful, and entering a medium's body would kill the person.
Damchen is Manjushri.
Palden Lhamo is 10th level bodhisattva
Nechung Oracle is Pehar.
I had heard Nechung was Dorje Drakden, a minister of Pehar.

Similar to how Palden Lhamo has no oracle, but there is an oracle for the Tenma goddesses in her retinue.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Malcolm
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog1 wrote:
lorem wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Some say Kalarupa is worldly, others say otherwise.

Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.

As for oracles, I have heard the same. I have also heard that worldly protectors like Pehar don't have oracles because they are too powerful, and entering a medium's body would kill the person.
Damchen is Manjushri.
Palden Lhamo is 10th level bodhisattva
Nechung Oracle is Pehar.
I had heard Nechung was Dorje Drakden, a minister of Pehar.

Similar to how Palden Lhamo has no oracle, but there is an oracle for the Tenma goddesses in her retinue.
The Tenma are worldly.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Konchog1 »

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.
Śrī Devi is a wisdom protector.
While on the topic, is there a difference between all the Sri Devis? For example, the Sri Devi popular among the Gelug, and the Sri Devi of Marpa? Are they the same deity or different?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by lorem »

EDIT:
I had heard Nechung was Dorje Drakden, a minister of Pehar
. Activity aspect. You might be right.

Shri Devis different. But plenty of resources on the web. I see this topic is controversial so better to follow the advice of Thokme Zangpo,
Last edited by lorem on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Some say Palden Lhamo is worldly, others say otherwise.
Śrī Devi is a wisdom protector.
While on the topic, is there a difference between all the Sri Devis? For example, the Sri Devi popular among the Gelug, and the Sri Devi of Marpa? Are they the same deity or different?

Same devi, different manifestations. All wisdom devatās have the same continuum, i.e., the dharmakāya.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by Konchog1 »

lorem wrote:Different. But plenty of resources on the web. I see this topic is controversial so better to follow the advice of Thokme Zangpo,
What worldly god, himself trapped in Samsara, can liberate others? Therefore when seeking refuge, take it in the undeceiving Triple Gem. This is the practice of the Bodhisattvas.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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qwerty13
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by qwerty13 »

Just politely thanked for setraps service and what he`s done for me and told that I dont need hes services anymore. Gently remided of samaya. Hopefully that does it.
Who should we turn to for refuge? We should seek refuge in the Buddha. He is the one we weep before
-H.H. 14th Dalai Lama
ngodrup
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Re: Practice of Setrap

Post by ngodrup »

There are all kinds of worldly deities that it is permissible to ask help from.
Assuming you are not taking refuge in them, that is. It is not without
potential problems, but you don't have to stress about it. Many of these
"traditional" protectors are Bodhisattvas-- pretty high even. They want to help
humans as part of *their* practice. Some are not so friendly or helpful.

I have heard some more conservative Lamas say, "Don't make
naga offerings, because they are of the animal class." But again,
although they can be irritable, some are Bodhisattvas... and they
definitely are involved with nature, the environment, timely rain...

Anyway, point being, if you like a certain deity, they *can* be included
in an appropriate way. The question about Karma is moot since, karma is
what you do rather than what you don't do. You aren't breaking a commitment.
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