Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

oldbob
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

There is a short way of catching this. Tsel, dang and rolpa are three ways that energy manifests. If there is a crystal and it is struck by light, the rays that are sent out are tsel. If the crystal is placed on a cloth, then the color and qualities of the cloth - seen through the crystal are dang. If something is seen inside the crystal, that is rolpa.

This is nice to know but not necessary to know information. The key point for the Dzogchen practitioner is to integrate whatever arises, in instant presence. To instant presence, tsel, dang and rolpa are exactly the same.

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Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:19 pm

This is nice to know but not necessary to know information.
Yes, actually it is. Why? Knowledge of the state of Dzogchen is communicated through words and symbols:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 44#p648744

Otherwise, might as well just follow Ekhardt Tolle:

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

oldbob wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:19 pm :namaste:

There is a short way of catching this. Tsel, dang and rolpa are three ways that energy manifests. If there is a crystal and it is struck by light, the rays that are sent out are tsel. If the crystal is placed on a cloth, then the color and qualities of the cloth - seen through the crystal are dang. If something is seen inside the crystal, that is rolpa.

This is nice to know but not necessary to know information. The key point for the Dzogchen practitioner is to integrate whatever arises, in instant presence. To instant presence, tsel, dang and rolpa are exactly the same.

:heart:
Right, the issue in this thread generally is confirming that one is in instance presence, that one can distinguish Rigpa from ordinary awareness and is not chasing just a non conceptual shamatha, which actually requires following Dzogchen praxis.

For sure there are different ways to do that, but none involve just blissing out and avoiding thoughts, assuming this is a “non conceptual” activity, which is something of a contradiction in terms.

My whole point in raising the issue is that there’s a sentiment I see often in Internet Dzogchen about thoughts and concepts that is off the mark, possibly because people disregard how subtle and precise some of the instructions on liberating the conceptual mind and habits are.
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oldbob
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

As stated before.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 96#p648096

Of course knowledge of Dzogchen is also communicated by words and symbols, and precise practice instructions - communicated in words.

But this is a non-sequitor to the idea that knowledge of tsel, dang and rolpa, is nice but not necessary.

So again, the use of skillful rhetoric and ridicule, to create a non-sequitur obfuscation and misdirection is perhaps just an inappropriate venting of spleen. Sadly, everyone understands this, and moves on.

No one has ever suggested "blissing out and avoiding thoughts as equivalent to Rigpa."

Relaxing in Rigpa - which has the qualities of being luminous, clear, spacious, empty, vast, unconditioned, uncaused, comfy and joyful - though these are never spoken of. There is no push or pull, or intentionality, with any words that arise or do not. Words arise, but they are not important - like writing on water or air.

"The Three Words" (concepts) of Garab Dorje" are the road map to developing certainty about Rigpa: direct introduction, developing confidence, and continuation. In this way, through practice and the blessings of the Guru, you find certainty you are in Rigpa.

Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.


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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:20 pm
oldbob wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:19 pm :namaste:

There is a short way of catching this. Tsel, dang and rolpa are three ways that energy manifests. If there is a crystal and it is struck by light, the rays that are sent out are tsel. If the crystal is placed on a cloth, then the color and qualities of the cloth - seen through the crystal are dang. If something is seen inside the crystal, that is rolpa.

This is nice to know but not necessary to know information. The key point for the Dzogchen practitioner is to integrate whatever arises, in instant presence. To instant presence, tsel, dang and rolpa are exactly the same.

:heart:
Right, the issue in this thread generally is confirming that one is in instance presence, that one can distinguish Rigpa from ordinary awareness and is not chasing just a non conceptual shamatha, which actually requires following Dzogchen praxis.

For sure there are different ways to do that, but none involve just blissing out and avoiding thoughts, assuming this is a “non conceptual” activity, which is something of a contradiction in terms.

My whole point in raising the issue is that there’s a sentiment I see often in Internet Dzogchen about thoughts and concepts that is off the mark, possibly because people disregard how subtle and precise some of the instructions on liberating the conceptual mind and habits are.
My whole point in raising the issue is that there’s a sentiment I see often in Internet Dzogchen
All Dzogchen that one encounters on the internet is "Internet Dzogchen".
What point are you trying to make?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:00 pm :namaste:

As stated before.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 96#p648096

Of course knowledge of Dzogchen is also communicated by words and symbols, and precise practice instructions - communicated in words.

But this is a non-sequitor to the idea that knowledge of tsel, dang and rolpa, is nice but not necessary.
Only people of the very highest intellectual caliber, like you bob, are able to discover instant presence without the need for post-equipoise ascertainment.

The rest of us shmoes need words and symbols so we can figure it all out until we can be awesome fully hatched garudas like yourself. That's why we need the knowledge of rtsal, rol pa, and gdangs.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:15 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:20 pm
oldbob wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:19 pm :namaste:

There is a short way of catching this. Tsel, dang and rolpa are three ways that energy manifests. If there is a crystal and it is struck by light, the rays that are sent out are tsel. If the crystal is placed on a cloth, then the color and qualities of the cloth - seen through the crystal are dang. If something is seen inside the crystal, that is rolpa.

This is nice to know but not necessary to know information. The key point for the Dzogchen practitioner is to integrate whatever arises, in instant presence. To instant presence, tsel, dang and rolpa are exactly the same.

:heart:
Right, the issue in this thread generally is confirming that one is in instance presence, that one can distinguish Rigpa from ordinary awareness and is not chasing just a non conceptual shamatha, which actually requires following Dzogchen praxis.

For sure there are different ways to do that, but none involve just blissing out and avoiding thoughts, assuming this is a “non conceptual” activity, which is something of a contradiction in terms.

My whole point in raising the issue is that there’s a sentiment I see often in Internet Dzogchen about thoughts and concepts that is off the mark, possibly because people disregard how subtle and precise some of the instructions on liberating the conceptual mind and habits are.
My whole point in raising the issue is that there’s a sentiment I see often in Internet Dzogchen
All Dzogchen that one encounters on the internet is "Internet Dzogchen".
What point are you trying to make?
I explained it in the post, the way I see many people (yes you included I guess, but I see lots of DC people talk this way too) post about Dzogchen they seem to be skipping major parts of the teachings, particularly on things like working with movement and still states, distinguishing Rigpa from ordinary awareness, etc.

People talk about just resting in luminous emptiness etc. which is certainly a part of things, but as Malcolm says, only people of the highest capacity need nothing else from there. For others there are schema of gradual practices to refine, remove doubt, etc. many of which involve integrating movement, mental and otherwise I.e. “thoughts”, subtle cognition into contemplation.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:47 pm I explained it in the post, the way I see many people (yes you included I guess, but I see lots of DC people talk this way too) post about Dzogchen
Most people who post about Dzogchen are fairly ignorant of the subject, and tend to rely on a few books and a few teachings they've received in week-long teachings they attended occasionally.

Some others have been in the game longer, have practiced and studied a lot, but since they don't know Tibetan, etc., their knowledge and understanding remains rather limited as well.

As ChNN said over and over again, in Dzogchen, understanding is more important than meditating. YMMV.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by haha »

There is another definition of Rtog pa: it is the cognition when the thought ceases. When thought cease, it is easier to recognize; probably point might be that. (This definition I got from bonpo dzogchen).

When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Tao »

haha wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:28 am When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
Ok, that's clear for me. That's also what happen after some kind of awakenings, so maybe related.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.
When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
:anjali:
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:29 pm
Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.
When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:42 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:29 pm
Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.
When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.
What does that mean and which dharmata are you referring to this time?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:42 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:29 pm
Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.
When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.
Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid (rig pa), because concepts don't go there.

That is not to say that concepts no longer arise due to habitual tendencies; which is why it is still necessary to practice and meditate, that is, in the sense of 'non-meditation', 'never meditating, yet never distracted'.

As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote in The Circle of the Sun :

"What, then, is the actual view in this situation? It is your primordially pure self-cognizance, uncompounded wakefulness, the original state transcending thought, the self-existing single circle, the great primordially free expanse of openness.

Since this view is spontaneously perfect as the nature of emptiness from the very beginning, it transcends arising. Since its cognizant expression is unceasing, it serves as the basis for the manifestation of all the phenomena of samsara and nirvana. Yet, whatever manifests is never beyond being emptiness, since it is utterly untainted in essence.

This view lies beyond the limitations of attributes like shape and color, good or evil, existence or nonexistence, permanence or annihilation. The nature of the view is your original wakefulness itself, beyond thoughts and utterances, unspoiled by the mental fabrications of intellectual fixation like the thought "It is beyond limitations!" and so forth.

To realize the view means to be freed from the fetters of doubt, mental fabrication, and dualistic fixation and to recognize and realize the innate condition exactly as it is. This takes place by the power of your master's various indications and instructions, and especially by the profound and wondrous receiving of his blessings. In actuality there is nothing to be realized that is supposed to arise anew from anywhere separate from the realizer. Rather, it is simply recognizing the natural face of your own wakefulness.

You may then ask, "Is it enough just to realize this view of Trekcho, the nature of the ground?"
The answer is that some worthy people of the highest capacity are liberated simultaneously with understanding the meaning of this view. For ordinary people, however, just to recognize is not enough. It is taught that all the momentary tendencies and obscurations must be exhausted and dissolve back into dharmadhatu.

The Sutra on the Purification of Karma mentions this:

The Blessed One was asked by bodhisattva Nirvirana-Vishkambin,
"What is the nature of the ripening of karma?"
The Buddha replied, "The nature is the intrinsic nature (dharmata)."

He was further asked, "If that is so, it would be logical that all sentient beings are effortlessly liberated."
The Buddha replied, "No, it would not be logical. As butter does not appear until the milk has been churned, or as silver does not come forth before the silver ore has been smelted, sentient beings do not awaken unless they practice and meditate."

Again he was asked, "If (sentient beings) are primordially the intrinsic nature, what is the point of practicing?"
The Buddha replied, "They should practice because it is necessary to clear away the momentary conceptual thinking that is like a cloud appearing in the sky."

Again he was asked, "If conceptual thinking is momentary, it is logical that it could reappear even after one has attained buddhahood."
The Buddha replied, "With the attainment of buddhahood, conceptual thinking has been totally annihilated, just like someone who has fully recovered from smallpox."
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:42 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:29 pm


Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid (rig pa), because concepts don't go there.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:42 pm

Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid (rig pa), because concepts don't go there.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there.
Concepts arise due to ma rig pa.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Tao »

muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:27 am How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:07 pm

Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid (rig pa), because concepts don't go there.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there.
Concepts arise due to ma rig pa.
It’s the same consciousness, whether it’s under the influence of rig pa or ma rig pa.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

Tao wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 am
muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:27 am How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
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