What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post Reply
bcol01
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:20 pm

What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by bcol01 »

I'd like to learn more about this.
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14468
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by Queequeg »

He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
_johnarundel_
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:00 pm

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by _johnarundel_ »

Zen practitioners claimed a special transmission outside the sutras. However, when questioned further about this, Zen practitioners would point to sutras to substantiate their claims, such as the "Sutra on Resolving Doubts about the Middle Day of the Law" and the Daibontennō-mombutsu-ketsugi sutra. I agree with Queequeg, I do not want to disparage others here.

Nichiren Daishonin teaches that instead of meditating, we instead should chant Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo to the Gohonzon, calling forth our inherent Buddha-nature and transform our earthly desires in enlightenment.

I'll provide the quote that Queequeg was talking about. I agree it is quite funny.

Nichiren Daishonin states in "Questions and Answers Between a Sage and a Foolish Man" ("Shogu mondo sho"),
At this, the unenlightened man looked somewhat mollified and said, "The words of the sutra are clear as a mirror; there is no room to doubt or question their meaning. But although the Lotus Sutra surpasses all the other sutras that the Buddha taught before, at the same time, or after, and represents the highest point in his preaching life, still it cannot compare with the single truth of Zen, which cannot be bound by words or confined in the text of a sutra, and which deals with the true nature of our minds. In effect, the realm where the countless doctrines are all cast aside and where words cannot reach is what is called the truth of Zen.

"Thus, on the banks of the Hiranyavati River, in the grove of sal trees, Shakyamuni Buddha stepped out of his golden coffin, twirled a flower, and when he saw Mahakashyapa's faint smile, entrusted this teaching of Zen to him. Since then, it has been handed down without any irregularity through a lineage of twenty-eight patriarchs in India, and was widely propagated by a succession of six patriarchs in China. Bodhidharma is the last of the twenty-eight patriarchs of India and the first of the six patriarchs of China. We must not allow this transmission to be lost, and founder in the nets of doctrine!

"So in the Daibontenno Mombutsu Ketsugi Sutra, the Buddha says, 'I have a subtle teaching concerning the Eye and Treasury of the True Law, the Wonderful Mind of Nirvana, the True Aspect of Reality That Is without Characteristics. It represents a separate transmission outside the sutras, independent of words or writing. I entrust it to Mahakashyapa.'

"Thus we see that this single truth of Zen was transmitted to Mahakashyapa apart from the sutras. All the teachings of the sutras are like a finger pointing at the moon. Once we have seen the moon, what use do we have for the finger? And once we have understood this single truth of Zen, the true nature of the mind, why should we concern ourselves any longer with the Buddha's teachings? Therefore a man of past times has said, 'The twelve divisions of the sutras are all idle writings.'

"If you will open and read the Platform Sutra of Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch of this sect, you will see that this is true. Once one has heard even a single word and thereby grasped and understood the truth, what use does he have for the teachings? But how are we to understand this principle?"

The sage replied, "You must first of all set aside the doctrines for the moment and consider the logic of the matter. Can anyone, without inquiring into the essential meaning of the Buddha's lifetime teachings or investigating the basic principles of the ten sects, presume to admonish the nation and teach others? This Zen that you are taking about is something that I have studied exhaustively for some time. In view of the extreme doctrines that it teaches, I must say that it is a highly distorted affair.

"There are three types of Zen, known respectively as Tathagata Zen, doctrinal Zen, and patriarchal Zen. What you are referring to is patriarchal Zen, and I would therefore like to give you a general idea of it. So listen, and understand what it is about.

"It speaks of transmitting something apart from the teachings. But apart from the teachings there are no principles, and apart from principles there are no teachings. Don't you understand the logic of this, that principles are none other than teachings and teachings none other than principles? This talk about the twirled flower, the faint smile, and something being entrusted to Mahakashyapa is in itself a teaching, and the four-character phrase about its being 'independent of words or writing' is likewise a teaching and a statement in words. This sort of talk has been around for a long while in both China and Japan. It may appear novel to you, but let me quote one or two passages that will clear up your misconceptions.

"Volume eleven of the Hochu states: 'If one says that we are not to hamper ourselves by the use of verbal expressions, then how, for even an instant in this saha world, can we carry on the Buddha's work? Do not the Zen followers themselves use verbal explanations when they are giving instruction to others? If one sets aside words and phrases, then there is no way to explain the meaning of emancipation, so how can anyone ever hear about it?'

"Farther on, we read: 'It is said that Bodhidarma came from the west and taught the "direct pointing to the mind of man" and "perceiving one's true nature and attaining Buddhahood." But are these same concepts not found in the Kegon Sutra and in the other Mahayana sutras? Alas, how can the people of our time be so foolish! You should all put faith in the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddhas, the Tathagatas, tell no lies!'

"To restate the meaning of this passage: if one objects that we are hampering ourselves with doctrinal writings and tying ourselves down with verbal explanations, and recommends a type of religious practice that is apart from the teachings of the sutras, then by what means are we to carry on the Buddha's work and make good causes in this saha world of ours? Even the followers of Zen, who advocate these views, themselves make use of words when instructing others. In addition, when one is trying to convey an understanding of the Buddhist Way, he cannot communicate the meaning if he sets aside words and phrases. Bodhidharma came to China from the west, pointed directly to people's minds, and declared that those minds were Buddha. But this principle is enunciated in various places even in the provisional Mahayana sutras that preceded the Lotus Sutra, such as the Kegon, Daijuku and Daihannya sutras. To treat it as such a rare and wonderful thing is too ridiculous for words. Alas, how can the people of our time be so distorted in their thinking! They should put their faith in the words of truth spoken by the Tathagata of perfect enlightenment and complete reward, wtreat it as such a rare and wonderful thing is too ridiculous for words. Alas, how

"In addition, the Great Teacher Miao-lo in the first volume of his Guketsu comments on this situation by saying, 'The people of today look with contempt on the sutra teachings and emphasize only the contemplation of truth, but they are making a great mistake, a great mistake indeed!'

"This passage applies to the people in the world today who put meditation on the mind and the dharmas first and do not delve into or study the teachings of the sutras. On the contrary, they despise the teachings and make light of the sutras. This passage is saying that this is a mistake.

"Moreover, I should point out that the Zen followers of the present age are confused as to the teachings of their own sect. If we open the pages of the Zoku Koso Den, we find that in the biography of the Great Teacher Bodhidharma, the first patriarch of Zen in China, it states, 'By means of the teachings one can understand the essential meaning.' Therefore, one should study and practice the principles embodied in the sacred teachings preached by the Buddha in the course of his lifetime and thereby gain an understanding of the substance of the various doctrines and the nature of the different sects.

"Furthermore, in the biography of Bodhidharma's disciple, Hui-k'o, the second of the six Chinese patriarchs, it states that the Meditation Master Bodhidharma handed over the four volumes of the Ryoga Sutra to Hui-k'o, saying, 'Observing this land of China, I find only this sutra to be of real worth. If you base your practice on it, you will be able to bring salvation to the world.' Here we see that, when the Great Teacher Bodhidharma came from India to China, he brought the four volumes of the Ryoga Sutra and handed them over to Hui-k'o, saying, 'When I observe the situation in this country, I see that this sutra is of outstanding superiority. You should abide by it and put it into practice and become a Buddha.'

"As we have just seen, these patriarch-teachers placed primary emphasis on the sutra texts. But if we therefore say that one must rely on the sutras, then we must take care to inquire whether those sutras belong to the Mahayana or the Hinayana, whether they are provisional teachings or true teachings.

"When it comes to making use of sutras, the Zen sect relies on such works as the Ryoga Sutra, the Shuryogon Sutra, and the Kongo Hannya Sutra. These are all provisional teachings that were preached before the Lotus Sutra, doctrines that conceal the truth.

"These various sutras expound partial truths such as 'the mind itself is Buddha and Buddha is none other than the mind.' The Zen followers have allowed themselves to be led astray by one or two such sentences and phrases, failing to inquire whether they represent the Mahayana or the Hinayana, the provisional or the true teachings, the doctrines that reveal the truth or the doctrines that conceal it. They merely advance the principle of non-duality without understanding the principle of duality, and commit an act of great arrogance, claiming that they themselves are equal to the Buddha. They are following in the tracks of the Great Arrogant Brahman of India and imitating the old ways of the Meditation Master San-chieh of China. But we should recall that the Great Arrogant Brahman, while still alive, fell into the hell of incessant suffering, and that San-chieh, after he died, turned into a huge snake. How frightful, how frightful indeed!

"Shakyamuni Buddha, with his understanding that had penetrated the three existences, and by the light of the clear wisdom-moon of perfect enlightenment and complete reward, peered into the future and, in the Zobo Ketsugi Sutra, made this prediction: 'Among the evil monks there will be those who practice meditation and, instead of relying on the sutras and treatises, heed only their own view of things, declaring wrong to be right. Unable to distinguish between what is correct and what is heretical, all they will do is face the clergy and lay believers and declare in this fashion, "I can understand what is right, I can see what is right." You should understand that it is people like this who will destroy my teachings in no time at all.'

"This passage is saying that there will be evil monks who put all their faith in Zen and do not delve into the sutras and treatises. They will base themselves on heretical views and fail to didelve into the sutras and treatises. They will base themselves on heretical views and fail to distinguish between false and true doctrines. Moreover, they will address themselves to men and women believers, monks and nuns, declaring, 'I can understand the doctrines, but other people do not,' in this way working to spread the Zen teachings. But you should understand that these people will destroy the True Law of the Buddha. If we examine this passage and observe the state of the world today, we see that the two match

"You spoke earlier of twenty-eight patriarchs of India who orally transmitted this Zen doctrine, but on what evidence is such a statement based? All the texts I have seen speak of twenty-four or, in some cases, twenty-three persons who transmitted the Buddha's teachings. Where is the translation that establishes the number of patriarchs as twenty-eight? I have never seen such a statement. This matter of the persons who were involved in the line of transmission of the Law is not something that one can simply write about arbitrarily. The Buddha himself left a clear record of what the line of transmission would be.

"Thus in the Fuhozo Den, it states: 'There will be a monk by the name of Aryasimha living in the kingdom of Kashmir who will strive vigorously to accomplish the Buddha's work. At that time the ruler of the kingdom will be named Mirakutsu, a man who gives himself up wholly to false views and has no reverence or faith in his heart. Throughout the kingdom of Kashmir he will destroy Buddhist temples and stupas and slaughter monks. He will take a sharp sword and use it to cut off Aryasimha's head. But no blood will spurt from his neck; only milk will come flowing out. With this, the line of persons who transmit the Law will be cut off.'

"To restate this passage: The Buddha says that, after he passes into nirvana, there will be a succession of twenty-four persons who will transmit his Law. Among these, the last to carry on the line of transmission will be a monk named Aryasimha, who will work to spread the Buddha's Law throughout the kingdom called Kashmir. The ruler of this state will be a man named King Dammira. He will be a person of false views and profligate ways, who has no faith in the Buddha's Law and no reverence for the monks. He will destroy Buddhist halls and stupas and use a sword to cut off the heads of the monks. And when he cuts off the head of the monk Aryasimha, there will be no blood in his neck; only milk will come flowing out. The Buddha declares that at this time the line of persons who transmit the Law will be cut off.

"The actual events did not in any way differ from the Buddha's predictions; the Venerable Aryasimha's head was in fact cut off. And as his head fell to the ground, so too did the arm of the king.

"It is a gross error to speak of twenty-eight patriarchs. This is the beginning of the errors of the Zen sect. The reason that Hui-neng lists twenty-eight patriarchs in his Platform Sutra is that, when he decided to treat Bodhidharma as the first patriarch of Chinese Zen, he found that there were too many years between the time of Aryasimha and that of Bodhidharma. He therefore arbitrarily inserted the names of three Zen teachers to fill up the interval, so that he could make it seem as though the Law had been transmitted from India to China without any break or irregularity in the line of transmission. It was all a fabrication designed to make people respect the Zen teachings.

"This deception was put forth long ago in China. Thus, the eleventh volume of the Hochu states: 'In our [T'ien-t'ai] school, we recognize a transmission through twenty-three patriarchs. How could there be any error in this view? Concerning the claim that there were twenty-eight patriarchs, we can find no translation of a source that supports such a view. Recently Zen priests have even produced carvings in stone and woodblock engravings, each with a sacred verse attached, which represent the seven Buddhas and the twenty-eight patriarchs, handing these down to their disciples. Alas, how can there be such blatant falsehoods! If persons of understanding have any power at all, they should do everything they can to correct such abuses!'

"This text is saying that to assert a transmission through a line of twenty-eight patriarchs and to produce stone carvings and woodblock engravings of them to indicate the line of transmission are highly mistaken undertakings, and that anyone who understands this should work to correct such errors. This is why I say that patriarchal Zen is a gravely erroneous affair.

"Earlier, you quoted a passage from the Daibontenno Mombutsu Ketsugi Sutra to prove your contention that Zen is 'a separate transmission outside the sutras.' But by quoting a sutra passage you were already contradicting your own assertion. Moreover, this sutra represents the provisional teachings, and, in addition, it is not listed either in the K'ai-yuan or the Chen-yuan era catalogues of Buddhist works. Thus we see that it is a work unlisted in the catalogues and a provisional teaching as well. Hence the scholars of our time do not refer to it; it cannot be used to prove anything.

"Coming now to the Lotus Sutra, we should note the groups which benefited when it was preached. When the doctrine of the hundred worlds and the thousand factors, or ichinen sanzen, was expounded in the theoretical teaching, the people of the two vehicles, who had been likened to rotten seeds [that can never put forth shoots], had the seeds of Buddhahood sprout. In the previous forty-two years of the Buddha's preaching, these persons had been despised because it was thought that 'never would they attain Buddhahood.' In every gathering and assembly, they heard nothing but curses and slander spoken against them and were shunned by all those of the human and heavenly realms, until it seemed that they were destined to die of hunger. But now, when the Lotus Sutra was preached, it was predicted that Shariputra would become the Flower Light Tathagata, that Maudgalyayana would become the Tamalapattra Sandalwood Fragrance Tathagata, that Ananda would become the Mountain Sea Wisdom Unrestricted Power King Buddha, that Rahula would become the Stepping on Seven Treasure Flowers Tathagata, that the five hundred arhats would become Universal Brightness Tathagatas, and that the two thousand shomon disciples would become Treasure Form Tathagatas. And on the day when the Buddha's life span from the time he attained enlightenment in the remote past was revealed, the bodhisattvas who were as countless as particles of dust increased in their understanding of the Way, discarded their still remaining illusions, and attained the last stage before the level of supreme enlightenment.

"Now if we examine the commentary of the Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai, it states: 'The other sutras tell us that, although the bodhisattvas may become Buddhas, those persons in the two realms of shomon and engaku can never do so. Good people can become Buddhas, we are told, but there is no indication that evil ones can do likewise. Men, it is said, can become Buddhas, but women are branded as emissaries from hell. Persons in the human or heavenly realms can attain Buddhahood, but it is nowhere stated that nonhuman creatures can do so. And yet, in this sutra, it is stated that all of these beings can attain Buddhahood.'

"What a wonderful thing this is! Though we have been born in the impure world in the Latter Day of the Law, we have committed neither the five cardinal sins nor the three cardinal sins as Devadatta did. And yet it was predicted that even Devadatta would in time become the Heavenly King Tathagata, so how much more should it be possible for persons like us, who have committed no such sins, to attain Buddhahood! And the eight-year-old dragon king's daughter, without changing her reptilian form, attained the wonderful fruit of Buddhahood in the southern realm. Therefore, how much more likely is it that women who have been born into the human realm should be able to do so!

"It is most difficult to be born in human form, and extremely rare to encounter the True Law. Now, if you want to rid yourself quickly of erroneous beliefs and adhere to what is correct, transform your status as a common mortal and attain that of Buddhahood, then you should abandon the Nembutsu, Shingon, Zen and Ritsu teachings and embrace this wonderful text of the single vehicle. If you do so, you will without a doubt be able to shake off the dust and defilement of delusion and impurity, and manifest yourself as a pure embodiment of enlightenment."

Then the unenlightened man said, "Listening to the teachings and admonitions of a sage like you, I find that the misunderstandings I have labored under in recent days are all suddenly dispelled. It is as though inherent wisdom had awakened within me. When right and wrong are made so clear, who could fail to take faith?

"And yet, when I look at the world around me, I find that, from the supreme ruler on down to the numberless common people, all place deep trust in the Nembutsu, Shingon, Zen and Ritsu teachings. Since I have been born in this land, how could I go against the example of the ruler?

(Gosho, p. 1057)
"The five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo are the core of the Lotus Sutra and the origin of all Buddhas throughout the entire world. Upon seeing the signs that these five characters now must be propagated, I, Nichiren, have set the precedent, today, at the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law."

- Nichiren Daishonin, “Shuju onfurumai-gosho” 種種御振舞御書


https://www.nichirenshoshu.or.jp/eng/daishonin.html
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by narhwal90 »

Going to nichirenlibrary and searching for "zen" is an interesting exercise. Nichiren certainly gives zen a lot of stick in general, for practices not being rooted in the sutras, or at least in his perspective not the proper ones.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:35 pm He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.
Sorry for butting in here, but according 9th century Tibetan records, what Bodhidharma said was that once the view has been experientially ascertained, at that point it is an error to continue to rely on books, since at that point there is no further need.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14468
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by Queequeg »

_johnarundel_ wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:16 pm I'll provide the quote that Queequeg was talking about. I agree it is quite funny.
You left out the funny part.
There was a mendicant priest who drifted about from province to province like floating grass, who rolled on from district to district like tumbleweed. Before anyone realized it, he appeared on the scene and stood leaning on the pillar of the gate, smiling but saying nothing.

The unenlightened man, wondering at this, asked what he wanted. At first the priest made no reply, but after the question was repeated, he said, “The moon is dim and distant, the wind brisk and blustery.” His appearance was quite out of the ordinary and his words made no sense, but when the unenlightened man inquired about the ultimate principle behind them, he found that they represented the Zen teachings as they are expounded in the world today.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14468
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:35 pm He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.
Sorry for butting in here, but according 9th century Tibetan records, what Bodhidharma said was that once the view has been experientially ascertained, at that point it is an error to continue to rely on books, since at that point there is no further need.
Maybe. The problem was that in 13th c. Japan, some proponents of Zen claimed a transmission outside the sutras coupled with flamboyant iconoclasm, but when pushed in debate, they would refer to sutras. It just didn't stand up in scholastic debate, particularly in a context that put significant emphasis on the sacred nature of texts.

I'm not about to get into the merits of the relative positions. I've said my piece about silliness presented as wisdom.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:35 pm He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.
Sorry for butting in here, but according 9th century Tibetan records, what Bodhidharma said was that once the view has been experientially ascertained, at that point it is an error to continue to rely on books, since at that point there is no further need.
sutras are not books
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by narhwal90 »

Thats not the point. Could you imagine Nichiren ever discarding the Lotus Sutra because some experience madde it no longer relevant? Anathema.
ItsRaining
Posts: 301
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 7:45 am

Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?

Post by ItsRaining »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:35 pm He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.
Sorry for butting in here, but according 9th century Tibetan records, what Bodhidharma said was that once the view has been experientially ascertained, at that point it is an error to continue to rely on books, since at that point there is no further need.
Maybe. The problem was that in 13th c. Japan, some proponents of Zen claimed a transmission outside the sutras coupled with flamboyant iconoclasm, but when pushed in debate, they would refer to sutras. It just didn't stand up in scholastic debate, particularly in a context that put significant emphasis on the sacred nature of texts.

I'm not about to get into the merits of the relative positions. I've said my piece about silliness presented as wisdom.
Relying on Sutras for debate and having an oral transmission apart from the texts are two different things.

That’s Sutra you cite for the flower raising is post Song it’s not used that often for anything, people just cite the story as being part of tradition if they refer to it.
Post Reply

Return to “Nichiren”