Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

[Josef]

Phowa is dependent upon practice.

If a person can do Phowa and has result with that and can prove that, because he/she can put inside the hole at the top of the skull a piece of Kusha grass, then this person can apply Phowa when he/she dies.

Now we get the question in case of broken Samayas, can this person who is experienced with Phowa NOT apply Phowa at the moment of death ?

We bear in mind that this person with broken Samayas is a Dzogchenpa and does Phowa once a day until he/she dies. Further this Dzogchenpa is very skilled in Thögal and Trekchöd

- What do you think ?

If the person in question is a Dzogchen practitioner who is "very skilled in thogal and trekchod" there is no need to practice phowa or anything else.

The Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche advices us Dzogchenpas who are busy in the ZZNG Dzogchen, to practice Phowa once a day after mastering the hole on the head. And he says not to forget this.

Great.

[Virgo]

Dzogchen is not about hell, etc. It is about our knowledge in each moment.

Kevin...

[kalden yungdrung]

Dzogchen is not about hell, etc. It is about our knowledge in each moment.

Kevin...

Or the right vision.

[Virgo]

Or the right vision.

Mhmm.

Kevin...

[lelopa]

Dzogchen is not about hell, etc. It is about our knowledge in each moment.

Kevin...

Or the right vision.

right Vision is Tantra
(pure vision/impure vision)

[PeterC]

If it is certain one is going to Vajra Hell, does one display any mental or physical symptoms?

Your head will be split into seven pieces.

By a blazing khatvanga, if you're really lucky

[kalden yungdrung]

Dzogchen is not about hell, etc. It is about our knowledge in each moment.

Kevin...

Or the right vision.

right Vision is Tantra
(pure vision/impure vision)

Right vision is also needed / possible in Sutra.

[Fortyeightvows]

Bro, what did you do?

If he doesn't confess, maybe we will start guessing...
After all these threads i think it must have been something big

[Grigoris]

Bro, what did you do?

If he doesn't confess, maybe we will start guessing...
After all these threads i think it must have been something big

I severely doubt it. It is probably just unfounded anxiety or heavily habituated Abrahamic based guilt.

[Fortyeightvows]

the guessing has begun!

[Grigoris]

the guessing has begun!

Going to Vajra hell is no easy task.

These are the actions which lead to rebirth there:

1. Intentionally killing one's father.
2. Intentionally killing one's mother.
3. Killing an Arhat (enlightened being).
4. Shedding the blood of a Buddha.
5. Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

That leads matricide and patricide. I find it highly unlikely that motova intentionally killed their mother or father recently, so the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent. Even if they did, it is more likely that they will go to jail, than avici hell, right now.

So I am going with the initial diagnosis of unfounded anxiety and/or Abrahamic guilt habits.

[Fortyeightvows]

the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent.

Well in another tgread, people were saying that Avici is the same as what they call vajra hell which they say comes from having broken samaya. Breaking samaya can be easy to do.
I think it's atisha who people quote as saying that he keeps his liberation vows perfect, sometimes breaks his bodhisattva vows, but has to constantly confess and purify his samaya vows.

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

I wouldn't be so sure of that..we never know who someone really is.

[narraboth]

the guessing has begun!

Going to Vajra hell is no easy task.

These are the actions which lead to rebirth there:

1. Intentionally killing one's father.
2. Intentionally killing one's mother.
3. Killing an Arhat (enlightened being).
4. Shedding the blood of a Buddha.
5. Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

That leads matricide and patricide. I find it highly unlikely that motova intentionally killed their mother or father recently, so the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent. Even if they did, it is more likely that they will go to jail, than avici hell, right now.

So I am going with the initial diagnosis of unfounded anxiety and/or Abrahamic guilt habits.

From what I read, Avīci is not Vajra Hell. Many texts indicate that 'only samaya breakage leads one to Vajra Hell, no other karma would'. Vajra Hell may be kind of Avīci though.

[Natan]

If it is certain one is going to Vajra Hell, does one display any mental or physical symptoms?

Your head will be split into seven pieces.

By a blazing khatvanga, if you're really lucky

Nope. The club of the raging Yaksha.

[humble.student]

Bro, what did you do?

If he doesn't confess, maybe we will start guessing...
After all these threads i think it must have been something big

[Grigoris]

From what I read, Avīci is not Vajra Hell. Many texts indicate that 'only samaya breakage leads one to Vajra Hell, no other karma would'. Vajra Hell may be kind of Avīci though.

Avici is the lowest hell.

[Norwegian]

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=949&start=40

Avici and the vajra hell are the same thing. You can read more about it in Words of my perfect teacher.

I don't have that text available now, but I'll check it out later.
It seems to me though that avici hell and vajra hell wouldn't be the same thing because ordinary people and those who do the five major sins can end up there. On the other hand, vajra hell is usually conceived of as being specifically or only or particularly for vajrayana practitioners who have broken samaya.

They are in fact the same hell.

This may be the state; from page 66 of Words:

1.1.8 The Hell of Ultimate Torment

This is an immense edifice of blazing hot metal, surrounded by the sixteen
Neighbouring Hells. In it Yama's henchmen toss incalculable numbers of
beings into the centre of a mountain of pieces of red-hot iron, glowing
like live coals. They whip up the flames with bellows of tiger and
leopard-skin until the bodies of their victims and the fire become indistinguishable.
Their suffering is tremendous. Apart from the cries of distress,
there is no longer any indication of the presence of actual bodies.
They constantly long to escape, but it never happens. Sometimes there is
a small gap in the fire and they think they can get out, but the workers
hit them with spears, clubs, hammers and other weapons and they are
subjected to all the agonies of the seven previous hells, such as having
molten bronze poured into their mouths.

Lifespan here is a whole intermediate kalpa. It is called the Hell of
Ultimate Torment because there could be no worse torment elsewhere.
It is the hell where those who have committed the five crimes with
immediate retribution, and practitioners of the Mantrayana who develop
adverse views regarding the Vajra Master, are reborn. No other actions
have the power to cause rebirth here.

Yes.

[PeterC]

Your head will be split into seven pieces.

By a blazing khatvanga, if you're really lucky

Nope. The club of the raging Yaksha.

That would do to too....I guess it depends on the sadhana

[Grigoris]

Breaking samaya can be easy to do.

Fixing samaya is just as easy and a hell of a lot of fun too: You invite around all your yogi and yogini friends and give them loads of alcohol and meat, sing songs, dance and during the party some of them may even get laid.

If you want guilt fueled self-mortification and penance then I would recommend Opus Dei.

I wouldn't be so sure of that..we never know who someone really is.

Don't be stupid. When was the last time you came across an Arhat? A Buddha? Somehow I don't think Motova has set up his own sangha by making Vinaya holding monastics leave the dispensation.

[pael]

Breaking samaya can be easy to do.

Fixing samaya is just as easy and a hell of a lot of fun too: You invite around all your yogi and yogini friends and give them loads of alcohol and meat, sing songs, dance and during the party some of them may even get laid.

What if you can't arrange or get to tsogs? Only Dharma Center which arrange tsogs moved far away. Last time I participate was 2 years ago. 35 buddhas? But I can't do it daily. Gelugpas say to do 28 short Vajrasattvas.