Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

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Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am
Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:57 am Just to echo an older discussion on the topic of oracles, JKhedrup, who spent some time at Sera Je:
JKhedrup wrote:I just checked with Geshe Sonam now to confirm what I have relayed here is accurate. He said every lama he has heard teach on this topic has stated that fully enlightened Buddhas cannot manifest through oracles, and says that there is no precedent that they can in any of the canonical scriptures.
There is a huge difference between manifesting THROUGH oracles and manifesting AS AN oracle. A Buddha can manifest as or emanate anything. Therefore, there is no reason why a Buddha cannot manifest or emanate an oracle.

As to "fully enlightened Buddhas CANNOT manifest through oracles", I think this makes no sense. I think a Buddha can do that if he/she wants to but that would be unskillful and unnecessary. Unskillful because it would create a precedence for any medium to claim that he/she is channeling a Buddha (I actually met a medium who claimed to be channeling Buddha Amitabha) and unnecessary because a Buddha can manifest as anything, so he/she can manifest as an oracle to deliver a message instead of going through an oracle to deliver a message.
Why would a buddha want to use a medium? That makes no sense at all. There is no need for it, as you yourself even admit. There is no evidence of such a thing occurring in any sūtra or tantra.
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tingdzin
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by tingdzin »

See what sloppy punctuation can do. If the article had said "a living oracle, and an emanation of Mamaki" (note the added comma), it would not have been subject to the interpretation that she was channeling Mamaki, which is an absurdity on many levels. As has been noted many times on this forum, the title "emanation" is tossed about pretty carelessly, and being recognized as an oracle is not that weird or unusual in Asia, and perhaps in Africa either (I don't know anything about Yoruba culture).

If her work is channeling human energies in a positive direction, and she's not just a money-grubbing charlatan, then that work deserves to be recognized, just as the spirit that animates Nechung is to be honored for major contributions to Tibet's and HH's welfare. This does not mean that either is a Buddha.
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:21 pm See what sloppy punctuation can do. If the article had said "a living oracle, and an emanation of Mamaki" (note the added comma), it would not have been subject to the interpretation that she was channeling Mamaki, which is an absurdity on many levels. As has been noted many times on this forum, the title "emanation" is tossed about pretty carelessly, and being recognized as an oracle is not that weird or unusual in Asia, and perhaps in Africa either (I don't know anything about Yoruba culture).

If her work is channeling human energies in a positive direction, and she's not just a money-grubbing charlatan, then that work deserves to be recognized, just as the spirit that animates Nechung is to be honored for major contributions to Tibet's and HH's welfare. This does not mean that either is a Buddha.

I don' think the punctuation is sloppy. This page directly equates Osun with Mamaki. This is wrong on so many levels.

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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Why would Tibets State oracle, go through all the trouble of obtaining the proper ritual implements, and bother with all this if she wasn't the real deal ?

It was a ceremony prepared and officiated by Nechung Kuten La, Medium for the State Oracle of Tibet, who shared with all present the fascinating tale of the adventures he had to go on to make the ceremony happen – including his travels to Mongolia for the Mamaki crown, trip to Nepal after a 25 year absence to bring back the Melong (oracle) mirror and he even found time to personally put the precious pearls on himself.
The elaborate recognition ceremony took place in Dharamsala India. It’s historicness was emphasized by Kuten La, who explained to those present that Mamaki, had not manifested before in living memory. He also explained the Tibetan Water Mother/Buddha and Osun the Yoruba Water Mother whom Venerable Yeye Omileye carries an ancient title for – are one Water Goddess just different cultures.

Although there are photographs to document ....it bothers me that the ceremony wasn't done in the traditional ceremonial room, but this smaller room....and a video wasn't made to document this......or even a documentary.... :shrug:


I don't know .....i want it to be authentic, and it seems authentic to me....i just wish there was more authentic proof that could not be questioned without a doubt.

She must have some connections with Nagas ?
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:52 pm

She must have some connections with Nagas ?
Oshun is represented as a human being, and sometimes as a mermaid. Beyonce makes direct reference to her in this Lemonade video, where she plays a vengeful Oshun:

"Death stands before all who are born."
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PeterC
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by PeterC »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:52 pm Why would Tibets State oracle, go through all the trouble of obtaining the proper ritual implements, and bother with all this if she wasn't the real deal ?

It was a ceremony prepared and officiated by Nechung Kuten La, Medium for the State Oracle of Tibet, who shared with all present the fascinating tale of the adventures he had to go on to make the ceremony happen – including his travels to Mongolia for the Mamaki crown, trip to Nepal after a 25 year absence to bring back the Melong (oracle) mirror and he even found time to personally put the precious pearls on himself.
The elaborate recognition ceremony took place in Dharamsala India. It’s historicness was emphasized by Kuten La, who explained to those present that Mamaki, had not manifested before in living memory. He also explained the Tibetan Water Mother/Buddha and Osun the Yoruba Water Mother whom Venerable Yeye Omileye carries an ancient title for – are one Water Goddess just different cultures.

Although there are photographs to document ....it bothers me that the ceremony wasn't done in the traditional ceremonial room, but this smaller room....and a video wasn't made to document this......or even a documentary.... :shrug:


I don't know .....i want it to be authentic, and it seems authentic to me....i just wish there was more authentic proof that could not be questioned without a doubt.

She must have some connections with Nagas ?
Authenticity is a very slippery concept. There was an excellent thread on this not long ago where Malcolm made the argument persuasively that you can never get away from subjective judgement. However in this case, I don't think it really makes any difference to us whether it's authentic or not, as it's not really going to change anything that we do.

I don't claim any familiarity with what this lady taught prior to this recognition, but I think we would all agree that it's almost certainly not Buddhavacana. So we should have no particular interest in what she's teaching.

There are many possible reasons why a lama might consent to performing some sort of ceremony. It's probably not a good idea to speculate why as that just takes you down the path of criticizing teachers of the Dharma.

If we wanted the services of an oracle - and again I can't really imagine why we might - she wouldn't be the obvious choice, you'd go to someone with a more established pedigree.

I don't really understand what she's doing, but equally I don't think we really need to understand what she's doing.
Norwegian
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Norwegian »

I wonder if there's the possibility of a misunderstanding or miscommunication having taken place here. That the Nechung Kuten never said that she is an oracle of Mamaki. Or that this was poorly communicated. Or that this woman is deliberately marketing herself as such, when she never really was said to be that.

Because this is all very strange.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:33 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:52 pm

She must have some connections with Nagas ?
Oshun is represented as a human being, and sometimes as a mermaid. Beyonce makes direct reference to her in this Lemonade video, where she plays a vengeful Oshun:


WOW, that was beautiful.....i would of been knocking heads off in my rage a few years ago....but that's how it feels when your love is not normal...off the charts....so is the rage...
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:08 pm I wonder if there's the possibility of a misunderstanding or miscommunication having taken place here. That the Nechung Kuten never said that she is an oracle of Mamaki. Or that this was poorly communicated. Or that this woman is deliberately marketing herself as such, when she never really was said to be that.

Because this is all very strange.
Yeah...i thought that too..it's so easy to conjure and create fake news too...just add some bits and pieces of truth to it, and the mind will try to make some sense of it all....to sound logical......but she was given the Melong pendant & pearls & crown, or do they just use them for the rituals ?

Anyways....i have enough stuff to concentrate on...but i will keep my eyes on this....if it's true , I'm happy their are beings taking on the job of this nature to help save the Earth.....
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:08 pm I wonder if there's the possibility of a misunderstanding or miscommunication having taken place here. That the Nechung Kuten never said that she is an oracle of Mamaki. Or that this was poorly communicated. Or that this woman is deliberately marketing herself as such, when she never really was said to be that.

Because this is all very strange.
He probably stated that he felt Oshun was an emanation of Mamaki, not Oshun = Mamaki, not unlike the way that the Gyalpo Kunga are considered worldly emanations of the five families.
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Norwegian
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:30 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:08 pm I wonder if there's the possibility of a misunderstanding or miscommunication having taken place here. That the Nechung Kuten never said that she is an oracle of Mamaki. Or that this was poorly communicated. Or that this woman is deliberately marketing herself as such, when she never really was said to be that.

Because this is all very strange.
He probably stated that he felt Oshun was an emanation of Mamaki, not Oshun = Mamaki, not unlike the way that the Gyalpo Kunga are considered worldly emanations of the five families.
Right, that would make sense. The other stuff, not so much.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
tingdzin
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by tingdzin »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:30 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:08 pm I wonder if there's the possibility of a misunderstanding or miscommunication having taken place here. That the Nechung Kuten never said that she is an oracle of Mamaki. Or that this was poorly communicated. Or that this woman is deliberately marketing herself as such, when she never really was said to be that.

Because this is all very strange.
He probably stated that he felt Oshun was an emanation of Mamaki, not Oshun = Mamaki, not unlike the way that the Gyalpo Kunga are considered worldly emanations of the five families.
Right, that would make sense. The other stuff, not so much.
What I said.
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:57 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:30 pm

He probably stated that he felt Oshun was an emanation of Mamaki, not Oshun = Mamaki, not unlike the way that the Gyalpo Kunga are considered worldly emanations of the five families.
Right, that would make sense. The other stuff, not so much.
What I said.
However, it is pretty clear the women in question, lacking any real knowledge of these things, thought he was saying "Oshun = Mamaki." Thus, no typo, and massive misunderstanding.
"Death stands before all who are born."
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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:02 pm it is pretty clear the women in question, lacking any real knowledge of these things

Would it be too much trouble for you to contact the oracle himself & clarify this ?
You speak & write Tibetan, so maybe you would be very helpful to him also .

http://nechung.org/oracle/index.php



:namaste:
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Sherab
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Sherab »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:01 pm
Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 am
Norwegian wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:57 am Just to echo an older discussion on the topic of oracles, JKhedrup, who spent some time at Sera Je:
There is a huge difference between manifesting THROUGH oracles and manifesting AS AN oracle. A Buddha can manifest as or emanate anything. Therefore, there is no reason why a Buddha cannot manifest or emanate an oracle.

As to "fully enlightened Buddhas CANNOT manifest through oracles", I think this makes no sense. I think a Buddha can do that if he/she wants to but that would be unskillful and unnecessary. Unskillful because it would create a precedence for any medium to claim that he/she is channeling a Buddha (I actually met a medium who claimed to be channeling Buddha Amitabha) and unnecessary because a Buddha can manifest as anything, so he/she can manifest as an oracle to deliver a message instead of going through an oracle to deliver a message.
Why would a buddha want to use a medium? That makes no sense at all. There is no need for it, as you yourself even admit. There is no evidence of such a thing occurring in any sūtra or tantra.
You are too quick on the draw. Do read carefully before you respond.

The post I was responding asserted that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through oracle. I don't see why not. But I also see that it would make no sense for a Buddha to do so because it would be unskillful and unnecessary. No evidence of a Buddha manifesting through an oracle does not imply that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through an oracle.
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Josef
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Josef »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:33 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:52 pm

She must have some connections with Nagas ?
Oshun is represented as a human being, and sometimes as a mermaid. Beyonce makes direct reference to her in this Lemonade video, where she plays a vengeful Oshun:

Im surprised Queen Bey hasnt been recognized as a tulku (she probably wouldnt have any interest).
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With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 pm

The post I was responding asserted that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through oracle.
Yes, they cannot.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Sherab
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Sherab »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:40 pm
Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 pm

The post I was responding asserted that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through oracle.
Yes, they cannot.
Why?
Tenma
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Tenma »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:40 pm
Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 pm

The post I was responding asserted that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through oracle.
Yes, they cannot.
So the Guan Yin mediums are all fake?
Malcolm
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Re: Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:40 pm
Sherab wrote: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:10 pm

The post I was responding asserted that a Buddha CANNOT manifest through oracle.
Yes, they cannot.
So the Guan Yin mediums are all fake?
Of course.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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