Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
Locked
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

I used ChartGPT to generate this text:

Yogacara and Madhyamaka are two distinct yet complementary philosophical frameworks within Mahayana Buddhism. While they have different emphases and approaches, they do not inherently contradict each other. In fact, they can be seen as addressing different aspects of the Buddhist path, with Madhyamaka focusing on ontological analysis and Yogacara emphasizing cognitive psychology.

Madhyamaka, when viewed through the lens of Western philosophy, can be understood as an ontological school. It delves into the nature of reality and analyzes the emptiness (shunyata) of inherent existence in all phenomena. Madhyamaka emphasizes the concept of two truths (conventional and ultimate truths) to elucidate the illusory nature of conventional reality and the emptiness of inherent existence.

On the other hand, Yogacara can be seen as a form of cognitive psychology. It explores the workings of consciousness, perception, and cognition. It places particular emphasis on the alaya-vijnana, the storehouse consciousness, which stores karmic imprints and influences our perceptions and experiences. The Yogacara framework investigates the nature of mind and seeks to transform consciousness through practices such as meditation and introspection.

When discussing the two truths in relation to Yogacara, it is important to note that the Yogacara tradition approaches the nature of reality from a different perspective. Yogacara does not explicitly employ the concept of two truths as it does not treat the nature of mind and the ultimate nature of reality as separate ontological categories. Instead, it emphasizes the timeless continuum of enlightened experience, referred to as buddha nature or tathagatagarbha.

Buddha nature, in Yogacara, is not an ontological condition but rather an inherent potential for enlightenment present in all beings. It is not something separate from our ongoing experience but a continuous, timeless aspect of our awakened nature. The alaya-vijnana, as the storehouse consciousness, is seen as the foundation upon which the realization of buddha nature can unfold.

In summary, Yogacara and Madhyamaka offer distinct perspectives within Mahayana Buddhism. Madhyamaka focuses on ontological analysis and the concept of two truths, while Yogacara delves into cognitive psychology and explores the nature of mind. The concepts of alaya-vijnana and buddha nature in Yogacara highlight the continuous, timeless potential for enlightenment inherent within all beings. While these perspectives may differ in emphasis and terminology, they can be seen as complementary approaches to understanding the path to awakening in Buddhism.

In the discourse surrounding Yogacara and Madhyamaka, it is worth noting the divergent views that have emerged, particularly regarding the ontological aspects of Yogacara. One prominent figure in this discussion is Shantarakshita, who critiqued Yogacara from an ontological standpoint.
User avatar
Tao
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Contact:

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Tao »

Not bad, I quite agree.

Also Yogacara seems to fit quite well neuro-science at some points. It's like the neuro-science of buddhist meditators. So I think it has some nice future, maybe we will see a new-yogacara school in the future...

While seen Madiamika very right I feel closer to Yogacara, but a bit of Madiamika to finish the emptiness of all the mental functions, mind and phenomena is very useful.

Best wishes
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Tao wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:10 am Also Yogacara seems to fit quite well neuro-science at some points. It's like the neuro-science of buddhist meditators. So I think it has some nice future, maybe we will see a new-yogacara school in the future...

While seen Madiamika very right I feel closer to Yogacara, but a bit of Madiamika to finish the emptiness of all the mental functions, mind and phenomena is very useful.
I consider Yogacara superior to Madhyamaka, but I don't think one contradict the other. Madhyamaka merely negates the ontological condition of beings and phenomena. Yogacara explains the mind of the Buddha and how our unenlightened mind functions and keeps us trapped in the cycle of existence. I will now study Yogacara and use them as my practice.
User avatar
Tao
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Contact:

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Tao »

>but I don't think one contradict the other.

I agree, they complement each other.

Best wishes
User avatar
Javierfv1212
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Javierfv1212 »

It's not really accurate.

The idea that yogacara eschews ontology and that Madhyamaka focuses on it is quite strange. In fact, it seems to me Yogacara is more focused on ontology, not less. The idea that Yogacara does not teach an ontological system, particularly an Idealistic one, is a minor view promoted by basically one person, Dan Lusthaus. He has been thoroughly refuted by Schmithausen.

Furthermore, Madhyamaka is more of an epistemological focused tradition, which critiques the ontological arguments of other schools, but does not really put forth a positive ontology of its own. Rather it seeks to go beyond all ontology and let go of all views. As such, its more of a epistemic method instead of an ontology.

Furthermore, while there are many later attempts to interpret Yogacara and Madhyamaka as not being contradictory, the early promoters of these systems argued directly against each other and there was much controversy in Indian between Madhyamika thinkers and Yogacara thinkers on numerous issues. Yogacara is mainly a foundationalist system of idealism, Madhyamaka is anti-foundationalist and not idealistic.

Chatgpt might be good for a lot of things, but its philosophical acumen leaves much to be desires.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:40 pm The idea that yogacara eschews ontology and that Madhyamaka focuses on it is quite strange. In fact, it seems to me Yogacara is more focused on ontology, not less. The idea that Yogacara does not teach an ontological system, particularly an Idealistic one, is a minor view promoted by basically one person, Dan Lusthaus. He has been thoroughly refuted by Schmithausen.
GPT about popularity fallacy:
The popularity fallacy, also known as the argumentum ad populum, is a logical fallacy where the popularity or widespread belief in a claim is used as evidence for its truthfulness. This fallacy assumes that if many people believe something or if it is widely accepted, it must be true. However, the popularity of a belief or idea does not necessarily make it valid or accurate. Truth should be determined by sound evidence and reasoning, not by the number of people who hold a particular belief.

I included Schmithausen in my reading list.
Furthermore, while there are many later attempts to interpret Yogacara and Madhyamaka as not being contradictory, the early promoters of these systems argued directly against each other and there was much controversy in Indian between Madhyamika thinkers and Yogacara thinkers on numerous issues. Yogacara is mainly a foundationalist system of idealism, Madhyamaka is anti-foundationalist and not idealistic.
From this articles http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articl ... madhy.html:
Most Buddhist scholars are often too ready to make a sharp distinction between the Mādhyamika and the Yogācāra, taking the one as exclusively advocating the theory of emptiness (śūnyatā) while the other is bent single-mindedly on an idealistic interpretation of the universe. They thus further assume that the idea of emptiness is not at all traceable in the Yogācāra and that idealism is absent in the Mādhyamika. This is not exact as a historical fact
Chatgpt might be good for a lot of things, but its philosophical acumen leaves much to be desires.
I made the prompt. I'm a programmer and good about use GPT. ChartGPT just give the form, since I'm not a native English speaker.
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:40 pmFurthermore, while there are many later attempts to interpret Yogacara and Madhyamaka as not being contradictory, the early promoters of these systems argued directly against each other and there was much controversy in Indian between Madhyamika thinkers and Yogacara thinkers on numerous issues. Yogacara is mainly a foundationalist system of idealism, Madhyamaka is anti-foundationalist and not idealistic.
I find a book called 'Early Yogacara and Its Relation to Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka'. A quote from it:
'Its weakly and strongly stated forms, respectively, are as follows: (i) there is no conclusive evidence that the early Yogacara authors were writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school, and (I) the early Yogacara writers were not writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school.'
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Some additional points about the debate:
Apparently, the support for Madhyamaka is because its logical syllogism gives a sense of non-verbalization, but this can also be found within Yogacara.
It is the realm of silence.
As Asariga states, all dhannas are inexpressible (nirabhiliipya); they are completely beyond the reach of verbalization.
pg. 182 from 'Early Yogadira and its Relation to Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: Change and Continuity in the History of Mahayana Buddhist Thought'
According to the criticism, one of the issues is found in one of Vasubandhu's books, but the problem with verbalization is that it can be complex to express the enlightened experience. There are even contradictions among Vasubandhu's books. I believe that it is correct to understand Yogacara as a school that aims to develop interpretations of Maitreya's sutras, not limited to Vasubandhu's texts. Therefore, the debates should continue as they used to be in India, as it is possible to create interpretations where these contradictions can be resolved.
User avatar
Javierfv1212
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:39 am
Location: South Florida

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Vajrasvapna wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:40 pmFurthermore, while there are many later attempts to interpret Yogacara and Madhyamaka as not being contradictory, the early promoters of these systems argued directly against each other and there was much controversy in Indian between Madhyamika thinkers and Yogacara thinkers on numerous issues. Yogacara is mainly a foundationalist system of idealism, Madhyamaka is anti-foundationalist and not idealistic.
I find a book called 'Early Yogacara and Its Relation to Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka'. A quote from it:
'Its weakly and strongly stated forms, respectively, are as follows: (i) there is no conclusive evidence that the early Yogacara authors were writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school, and (I) the early Yogacara writers were not writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school.'
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka#Yogacara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogachara ... Madhyamaka
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
User avatar
Vajrasvapna
Posts: 414
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Vajrasvapna »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:26 pm
Vajrasvapna wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:40 pmFurthermore, while there are many later attempts to interpret Yogacara and Madhyamaka as not being contradictory, the early promoters of these systems argued directly against each other and there was much controversy in Indian between Madhyamika thinkers and Yogacara thinkers on numerous issues. Yogacara is mainly a foundationalist system of idealism, Madhyamaka is anti-foundationalist and not idealistic.
I find a book called 'Early Yogacara and Its Relation to Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka'. A quote from it:
'Its weakly and strongly stated forms, respectively, are as follows: (i) there is no conclusive evidence that the early Yogacara authors were writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school, and (I) the early Yogacara writers were not writing in opposition to the Madhyamaka school.'
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka#Yogacara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogachara ... Madhyamaka
Could you elaborate what is you point? Wikipedia article are not a argument.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17090
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Complementary Perspectives: Yogacara and Madhyamaka

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Locking this as a discussion over ChatGPT produced material is not desired on DW.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Locked

Return to “Academic Discussion”