How flatworms acquire consciousness?

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Hi all,
In a 2016 thread, titled "What is a "sentient being"?"
Acharya Malcolm wrote this interesting quote about planarians:

"Then there is this — when you cut a planarian flatworm in two, it becomes two separate creatures. If you cut it into tiny pieces, each piece will regenerate as a separate individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian

Are planarians sentient beings? I think so. This then raises the question of how such consciousness that they posses individuates when a whole planarian is split into two or more viable segments. It seems that all creatures beyond the range of complexity of planarians lack this ability."
( https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=325347 )

Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
I mean, if we cut a planarian vertically, which of the 2 separate beings is the "original" one?
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Hi all,
In a 2016 thread, titled "What is a "sentient being"?"
Acharya Malcolm wrote this interesting quote about planarians:

"Then there is this — when you cut a planarian flatworm in two, it becomes two separate creatures. If you cut it into tiny pieces, each piece will regenerate as a separate individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian

Are planarians sentient beings? I think so. This then raises the question of how such consciousness that they posses individuates when a whole planarian is split into two or more viable segments. It seems that all creatures beyond the range of complexity of planarians lack this ability."
( https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=325347 )

Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
I mean, if we cut a planarian vertically, which of the 2 separate beings is the "original" one?
(emphasis added)
I think I've located the reason for your perplexity - bolded above.
:thinking:
If you don't want to change your opinion about flatworms, you're in for an endless and completely futile debate with yourself and anyone else who cares to join in. There are no clear and widely accepted answers to "what is sentience?" or "how does sentience arise?" and you need answers to both of those to resolve your puzzle.
And even if you did settle both of them to your own satisfaction, then what?
It has been said here on DW that "Compassion to all sentient beings" is actually a poor translation of any of the various "original" texts, so your solutions would be redundant anyway.

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Astus »

Sounds like a thousand years old question.

Chan master Yanqing Faduan ... was asked by a government official, ‘When an earthworm is chopped in two and both parts are still moving, in which half is the Buddha-nature?’
The master opened both his hands.
(Dongshan also said, ‘The one posing the question, which half is that?’)

(Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 3, 12.287; T51, no. 2076, p. 296b24-26)

Shengguang split an earthworm while hoeing, then asked:
'Someone today split an earthworm with a hoe. Both its ends move. Which one has life?'
The teacher (Zihu) picked up the hoe, hit down on the left end, hit down on the right end, hit down on the empty middle, threw back the hoe and left.

(X68, no. 1315, p. 75b15-18)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Tao
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Contact:

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Tao »

Two answers already stated:

- No, worms doesnt have consciousness (which is probably true, as their brain is very primitive)
- Consciousness is not a thing, Tathagatagarbha is not a thing. Is like saying, if I cut space in two? where the center goes?

Consciousness is usually compared to space for good reasons.

Your questions seem to me that you are atman-ing Tathagatagarbha (building a self, a center).
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Tao wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:24 pm Two answers already stated:

- No, worms doesnt have consciousness (which is probably true, as their brain is very primitive)
- Consciousness is not a thing, Tathagatagarbha is not a thing. Is like saying, if I cut space in two? where the center goes?

Consciousness is usually compared to space for good reasons.

Your questions seem to me that you are atman-ing Tathagatagarbha (building a self, a center).
In case worms have consciousness, once they split, two individuals cannot share the same continuum, each of them feels and lives different situation and experiences. If one dies, the other may not, continuing the accumulation of karma.
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:35 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Hi all,
In a 2016 thread, titled "What is a "sentient being"?"
Acharya Malcolm wrote this interesting quote about planarians:

"Then there is this — when you cut a planarian flatworm in two, it becomes two separate creatures. If you cut it into tiny pieces, each piece will regenerate as a separate individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian

Are planarians sentient beings? I think so. This then raises the question of how such consciousness that they posses individuates when a whole planarian is split into two or more viable segments. It seems that all creatures beyond the range of complexity of planarians lack this ability."
( https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=325347 )

Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
I mean, if we cut a planarian vertically, which of the 2 separate beings is the "original" one?
(emphasis added)
I think I've located the reason for your perplexity - bolded above.
:thinking:
If you don't want to change your opinion about flatworms, you're in for an endless and completely futile debate with yourself and anyone else who cares to join in. There are no clear and widely accepted answers to "what is sentience?" or "how does sentience arise?" and you need answers to both of those to resolve your puzzle.
And even if you did settle both of them to your own satisfaction, then what?
It has been said here on DW that "Compassion to all sentient beings" is actually a poor translation of any of the various "original" texts, so your solutions would be redundant anyway.

:namaste:
Kim
It's more about to find out how the bardo being is supposed to appropriate the worm body. Which half? How? Why? Are worms able to host a mental continuum? Etc.
User avatar
Tao
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Contact:

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Tao »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:53 pm In case worms have consciousness, once they split, two individuals cannot share the same continuum, each of them feels and lives different situation and experiences. If one dies, the other may not, continuing the accumulation of karma.
So the problem is not with consciousness, not Tathagatagharba, but with personal karma and rebirth...

Ok, I cannot help you I dont even believe in personal karma rebirth. But probably a worm doesnt have consciousness to start with.

Anyway I cannot help more, but to state that consciousness or Tathagatagharba arent the problem discussed.
Miorita
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:37 pm
Location: US

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Miorita »

Maybe you want to study plants. They’re more behaved keeping an order: root, stem, leaves & flowers.
Other than that, flatworms do have a beginning and an end. Look carefully!
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Miorita wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:04 pm Maybe you want to study plants. They’re more behaved keeping an order: root, stem, leaves & flowers.
Other than that, flatworms do have a beginning and an end. Look carefully!
Sorry, i didn't understand your point
Miorita
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:37 pm
Location: US

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Miorita »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:18 pm [quote=Miorita post_id=667287 time=<a href="tel:1686146667" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">1686146667</a> user_id=15735]
Maybe you want to study plants. They’re more behaved keeping an order: root, stem, leaves & flowers.
Other than that, flatworms do have a beginning and an end. Look carefully!
Sorry, i didn't understand your point
[/quote]
You talk about their organism as being an undifferentiated mass of cells that you could divide in equal pieces because it won’t matter as long as it’s cellular division. It is rather insulting to them, don’t you think?
To have them evolve you need to approach them from their level of consciousness. If you totally deny existence of life in such organisms (order implied) then you might not be identifying the circumstances correctly.
One organism identifies with an individual.
If it were to be split in 5, you would need 5 viable individuals that is they are able to survive on their own. Can you maintain life in all these 5 individuals? If yes, then these are your pets. How you relate to your pets it is not of someone else’s concern.
If they have needs, they’ll grow the organs. With organs, you’ll need a bigger switch box. Theoretically you have 2 worms, practically not so much. You need digestion, and accumulation to happen in the 2 segments. So I highly doubt it.
I had to explain why scar tissue does not fit the definition of a normal reproductive tissue in women, that’s why I’m looking so critical at the assumptions made.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
It’s really no different than cells dividing. And every sentient being is a mass of individual cells.
But awareness (consciousness) cannot be located anywhere either inside or outside of matter.
That’s the puzzle, in a sense. There are sutras where the Buddha makes this point: the location of the mind cannot be found. But I don’t think he ever gave an answer, because knowing the answer wouldn’t bring one any closer to liberation from samsara.

All we can say is that consciousness “arises” along with matter, like the way a reflected image “arises” with a mirror. Because the material mirror provides the physical construct (flat surface, shiny substrate) an image can “arise” when the conditions are right (something is placed in front of it) even though it’s not actually a physical part of the mirror. In other words, the reflection doesn’t ‘exist’ in the glass.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:57 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
It’s really no different than cells dividing. And every sentient being is a mass of individual cells.
But awareness (consciousness) cannot be located anywhere either inside or outside of matter.
That’s the puzzle, in a sense. There are sutras where the Buddha makes this point: the location of the mind cannot be found. But I don’t think he ever gave an answer, because knowing the answer wouldn’t bring one any closer to liberation from samsara.

All we can say is that consciousness “arises” along with matter, like the way a reflected image “arises” with a mirror. Because the material mirror provides the physical construct (flat surface, shiny substrate) an image can “arise” when the conditions are right (something is placed in front of it) even though it’s not actually a physical part of the mirror. In other words, the reflection doesn’t ‘exist’ in the glass.
Every sentient being is a mass of individual cells as you said, fine.
The mass of the individual cells which form my body, provide the condition for a single mental continuum to perpetuate.
A flat worm may have a mental continuum too. If i cut this worm in 10 pieces, when all pieces will be completely formed as new worm bodies, how many continua we can observe? And... The continuum of the first worm (From which the other 9 pieces are then obtained) in which piece perpetuates its own continuum?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:57 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
It’s really no different than cells dividing. And every sentient being is a mass of individual cells.
But awareness (consciousness) cannot be located anywhere either inside or outside of matter.
That’s the puzzle, in a sense. There are sutras where the Buddha makes this point: the location of the mind cannot be found. But I don’t think he ever gave an answer, because knowing the answer wouldn’t bring one any closer to liberation from samsara.

All we can say is that consciousness “arises” along with matter, like the way a reflected image “arises” with a mirror. Because the material mirror provides the physical construct (flat surface, shiny substrate) an image can “arise” when the conditions are right (something is placed in front of it) even though it’s not actually a physical part of the mirror. In other words, the reflection doesn’t ‘exist’ in the glass.
Every sentient being is a mass of individual cells as you said, fine.
The mass of the individual cells which form my body, provide the condition for a single mental continuum to perpetuate.
A flat worm may have a mental continuum too. If i cut this worm in 10 pieces, when all pieces will be completely formed as new worm bodies, how many continua we can observe? And... The continuum of the first worm (From which the other 9 pieces are then obtained) in which piece perpetuates its own continuum?
There’s no unchanging “thing” that continues. Every moment creates the conditions for the next.
The continuum is like a flowing river (“stream” of consciousness?) in the sense that a river can branch off into various other streams, creeks, etc.

What’s continuous is the “movement” of consciousness rather than any “thing” that is conscious.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Miorita
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:37 pm
Location: US

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Miorita »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:57 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:27 pm Does anyone have an explaination for this phenomena?
It’s really no different than cells dividing. And every sentient being is a mass of individual cells.
But awareness (consciousness) cannot be located anywhere either inside or outside of matter.
That’s the puzzle, in a sense. There are sutras where the Buddha makes this point: the location of the mind cannot be found. But I don’t think he ever gave an answer, because knowing the answer wouldn’t bring one any closer to liberation from samsara.

All we can say is that consciousness “arises” along with matter, like the way a reflected image “arises” with a mirror. Because the material mirror provides the physical construct (flat surface, shiny substrate) an image can “arise” when the conditions are right (something is placed in front of it) even though it’s not actually a physical part of the mirror. In other words, the reflection doesn’t ‘exist’ in the glass.
Every sentient being is a mass of individual cells as you said, fine.
The mass of the individual cells which form my body, provide the condition for a single mental continuum to perpetuate.
A flat worm may have a mental continuum too. If i cut this worm in 10 pieces, when all pieces will be completely formed as new worm bodies, how many continua we can observe? And... The continuum of the first worm (From which the other 9 pieces are then obtained) in which piece perpetuates its own continuum?
Do you mean if they’ll all remember the separation? They are separate, aren’t they? It depends on the cell memory.
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:30 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:57 pm
It’s really no different than cells dividing. And every sentient being is a mass of individual cells.
But awareness (consciousness) cannot be located anywhere either inside or outside of matter.
That’s the puzzle, in a sense. There are sutras where the Buddha makes this point: the location of the mind cannot be found. But I don’t think he ever gave an answer, because knowing the answer wouldn’t bring one any closer to liberation from samsara.

All we can say is that consciousness “arises” along with matter, like the way a reflected image “arises” with a mirror. Because the material mirror provides the physical construct (flat surface, shiny substrate) an image can “arise” when the conditions are right (something is placed in front of it) even though it’s not actually a physical part of the mirror. In other words, the reflection doesn’t ‘exist’ in the glass.
Every sentient being is a mass of individual cells as you said, fine.
The mass of the individual cells which form my body, provide the condition for a single mental continuum to perpetuate.
A flat worm may have a mental continuum too. If i cut this worm in 10 pieces, when all pieces will be completely formed as new worm bodies, how many continua we can observe? And... The continuum of the first worm (From which the other 9 pieces are then obtained) in which piece perpetuates its own continuum?
There’s no unchanging “thing” that continues. Every moment creates the conditions for the next.
The continuum is like a flowing river (“stream” of consciousness?) in the sense that a river can branch off into various other streams, creeks, etc.

What’s continuous is the “movement” of consciousness rather than any “thing” that is conscious.
With the example of the river, are you saying that a personal continuum can divide into two separate beings and be experienced by two different bodies?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:54 pm With the example of the river, are you saying that a personal continuum can divide into two separate beings and be experienced by two different bodies?
An individual doesn’t possess a continuum. It’s the continuum from which the experience of an individual person arises.

continuum suggests a process of movement. A continuum isn’t a fixed “thing” that splits and is experienced by two bodies. Two being experience their own individual streams. It’s just that those two streams share the same starting point. They both have the same “mother” stream you might say.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:54 pm With the example of the river, are you saying that a personal continuum can divide into two separate beings and be experienced by two different bodies?
The analogy of a river is that, say you have a river such as the Amazon. There’s no “essence of river” perpetuating it. If you scoop up some in a bucket, it’s just a bucket of water. It may have its unique balance of life forms or minerals or whatever, but those are all components. Constantly shifting and changing components.

The consciousness or mindstream of sentient beings is like this (not to mention the physical body which is always changing) and so there is no “self” that can be found.

Where a river splits into tributaries, are they still the same river or are they now two different rivers? They are two different rivers yet each carries whatever contents they ‘inherit’ from the main river. The place where the main river splits in two is where the two rivers begin.

Likewise, when you cut a flatworm in half, they are like river tributaries. They inherit whatever they inherit from being previously a single organism. But each is immediately creating its new individual mindstream.

Karma is produced by the mind. If our hypothetical worm has created some conditions which planted some karmic seeds, those will ripen if and when the conditions for ripening arise, regardless whether it’s a single being or multiples.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Vajrasambhava
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:54 pm With the example of the river, are you saying that a personal continuum can divide into two separate beings and be experienced by two different bodies?
The analogy of a river is that, say you have a river such as the Amazon. There’s no “essence of river” perpetuating it. If you scoop up some in a bucket, it’s just a bucket of water. It may have its unique balance of life forms or minerals or whatever, but those are all components. Constantly shifting and changing components.

The consciousness or mindstream of sentient beings is like this (not to mention the physical body which is always changing) and so there is no “self” that can be found.

Where a river splits into tributaries, are they still the same river or are they now two different rivers? They are two different rivers yet each carries whatever contents they ‘inherit’ from the main river. The place where the main river splits in two is where the two rivers begin.

Likewise, when you cut a flatworm in half, they are like river tributaries. They inherit whatever they inherit from being previously a single organism. But each is immediately creating its new individual mindstream.

Karma is produced by the mind. If our hypothetical worm has created some conditions which planted some karmic seeds, those will ripen if and when the conditions for ripening arise, regardless whether it’s a single being or multiples.
Ok I understand.
But how we can explain this using the tantric model?
I mean, in order to have two beings, we need two gandharvas who appropriate the respective body.
When we have a flatworm, we have a gandharva appropriating that body, when we cut it, let's say a new gandharva approptiates one half, developing a new whole body from a cut half. It stands to reason, the other half must have (or maintain) the same gandharva of the worm when it was uncut. So, in case we cut a worm, which segment will be occupied by a new gandharva and which segment will hold the same gandharva held when the worm was uncut? That's my original question
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:57 am So, in case we cut a worm, which segment will be occupied by a new gandharva and which segment will hold the same gandharva held when the worm was uncut? That's my original question
Neither, because there’s nothing that is a continuous gandharva (or any other type of being).
They both arise as new beings.
There never was a continuous gandharva, even before the worm was cut.

I understand your question. But the answer is eluding you because you are still thinking of beings as continuous entities.

Each moment of the arising of a being is actually just a very close reproduction of the previous moment of arising, caused by the previous moment of arising. The appearance of a continuous being occurs because moment to moment, the causes and conditions are nearly identical (which is, for example, why you don’t see yourself aging in real time but as an adult you can easily see that you are no longer a child).

It’s like how images in a motion picture of animated cartoon appear to have continuous movement even though they are really a series of separate, still images.

The difference between images on movie film and sentient beings is that there is no unchanging moment in time that defines a being, the way that there are unchanging frames on a strip of movie film.

This is why consciousnesses is more like the flow of a river. You can’t say where one section of a river stops and the one following it begins.

So with subdividing a creature, whether before, during, and after it is sliced, its appearance of a continuous entity is just that —an appearance, an illusion. At any given moment, what was there has already produced something else. Or, to be more precise, has already become the cause for something new.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Miorita
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:37 pm
Location: US

Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?

Post by Miorita »

If you cut the worm lengthwise, the worm is killed and it cannot regenarate.
2 halves of the brain need each other in order to work. If you destroy the master box, that's it! It won't grow another one on a whim.
Last edited by Miorita on Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply

Return to “Academic Discussion”