Why so gray?

[ject]

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?

[jet.urgyen]

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?

About to rise, in my opinion.

[Aryjna]

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?

It's possible that most people simply become interested later in life. Perhaps it doesn't necessarily mean that it's just the same people that were there 20 years ago getting older (assuming that it is generally true that most people in centers etc. are older).

[heart]

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?

Good question that many ask these days.

[dharmafootsteps]

For those who have been around the Western dharma scene for a few decades, were there more young people attending teachings in the past?

[Boomerang]

I'm in my 20s, and I've always assumed that most older Westerners became interested in Buddhism because the beatnik movement, hippie movement, and Hollywood films like Kundun attracted them from the 1950s to 1990s. Youth culture isn't like that now.

[heart]

For those who have been around the Western dharma scene for a few decades, were there more young people attending teachings in the past?

Yes, we where all very young and now we are all very grey. However, there have always been a number of people that got interested in Dharma in their grey period.

[Giovanni]

For those who have been around the Western dharma scene for a few decades, were there more young people attending teachings in the past?

Yes without doubt. But it was always questionable whether many would sustain that interest. I think the initial wave of interest in Buddhadharma passed some time ago and is always going to be a minority interest. But I could be wrong. There could be a second wave.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?

It depends on where you live, which is different than cyberspace. I live in a city with a large university, and The weekly meditation sessions, classes, and other events held at the nearby Buddhist center are attended mostly by people in their 20’s & 30’s. But there are also older folks of course.

Keep in mind, western ‘convert Buddhism’ has a different demographic base than ‘immigrant Buddhism’ which is very family-oriented and involves people of all ages. So, a lot really depends on where one draws samples from.

[jet.urgyen]

For those who have been around the Western dharma scene for a few decades, were there more young people attending teachings in the past?

There where a lot in recent years here in the local DC group, we did lot of weekend retreats together. I mean people from 20 to 25 y.o., that's young for me (i was 33 at the time), excelent people, very committed to practice. All of them went to nyigma, drikung, and bon-buddhism systems after ChNN's departure. This hiatus was time for reflection for some.

Nowadays here's a lot also in the local Drikung center, also youngsters from 20 to 25 y.o., excelent people, very commited, very respectful.

[Meido]

FWIW, we have been asking the same questions in the Western Zen world. Part of the answer to "why so gray" seems not only to be the aging of the generations initially interested, as mentioned above, but also a bit of a gap in subsequent generational interest that occurred for a number of reasons.

The reaction of many dharma centers to this has been to try to create targeted programming they believed would draw younger folks (for example, programs focused on social justice issues), and to ease up on the rigor of practice forms and retreats. But this has largely backfired.

What I am seeing now is that centers stressing a more traditional, rigorous practice approach are the ones attracting the 20-somethings. Those younger practitioners I've spoken with indicate they were searching specifically for something genuine, and are hypersenstive to anything they perceive to be watered-down, compromising, or (especially) pandering to them. So, perhaps Gen Z for the win: they've got existential angst and urgency to spare, and seem not to shy away from the challenge of practice.

Not sure if any of this applies to Dzogchen places, but thought I'd share.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Most young people in my cultural experience are not very interested in spirituality. This is not unique to Dzogchen or Buddhism as a whole.

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

[krodha]

FWIW, we have been asking the same questions in the Western Zen world. Part of the answer to "why so gray" seems not only to be the aging of the generations initially interested, as mentioned above, but also a bit of a gap in subsequent generational interest that occurred for a number of reasons.

The reaction of many dharma centers to this has been to try to create targeted programming they believed would draw younger folks (for example, programs focused on social justice issues), and to ease up on the rigor of practice forms and retreats. But this has largely backfired.

What I am seeing now is that centers stressing a more traditional, rigorous practice approach are the ones attracting the 20-somethings. Those younger practitioners I've spoken with indicate they were searching specifically for something genuine, and are hypersenstive to anything they perceive to be watered-down, compromising, or (especially) pandering to them. So, perhaps Gen Z for the win: they've got existential angst and urgency to spare, and seem not to shy away from the challenge of practice.

Not sure if any of this applies to Dzogchen places, but thought I'd share.

I know there was a group of Bönpo lamas for awhile that all decided that westerners weren’t ready for anything beyond superficial topics. This is why we saw a large collection of lha retrieval teachings and other basic topics being recycled. They concluded that the western palette just was not ready for anything more. I can only assume this did backfire, as it probably failed to interest practitioners who were/are ready for more in depth teachings.

Another example, you gave a teaching last year, or the year before about accessing samādhi through the senses – which was incredible by the way, thank you – but it seemed to be the rare exception in terms of subject matter, at least through the program that offered the webcast at the time. I’m sure you teach stuff like that all the time to your dedicated students but as a one-off webcast it certainly stood out in comparison to what else was being offered by whatever other teachers were involved with the group in question.

[Josef]

It was many years before I was no longer the youngest person in the room.
Recently however I have been seeing a lot more younger people with sincere interest in the teachings.

[PadmaVonSamba]

The reaction of many dharma centers to this has been to try to create targeted programming they believed would draw younger folks (for example, programs focused on social justice issues), and to ease up on the rigor of practice forms and retreats. But this has largely backfired.

…not a reply to you specifically, but this statement in general brings up a good point.

What I have noticed is that “teachings” or at least what is offered as programs (aside from ritual activity) online or at a few dharna centers I have visited seem to fall into either of two types:

1. A traditional examination, almost academic approach to studying the Buddhist sutras or teachings and commentaries by great masters of the past.

2. A ‘Sunday sermon’ approach with a topic such as “the middle-way approach to workplace stress” presented basically as a way to give a Buddhist perspective on relatable problems or popular issues of the day.

I suppose there is room for both. Having had teachers who taught as in the first example, I personally have no interest in listening to the other.

[stong gzugs]

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

Even worse, if you want to find younger people, you can look into the "pragmatic dharma" movement. But you're not going to like what you find. It's highly secularized, tech-bro style "meditation hacking," Western-centric, and all the rest, except done in the name of a new and improved dharma...

[PadmaVonSamba]

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

Even worse, if you want to find younger people, you can look into the "pragmatic dharma" movement. But you're not going to like what you find. It's highly secularized, tech-bro style "meditation hacking," Western-centric, and all the rest, except done in the name of a new and improved dharma...

There is some of that in my area.
Not really sure what the point of it is.

[stong gzugs]

Not really sure what the point of it is.

Me neither. But I know the point for them definitely isn't bodhichitta.

[natusake]

It's about waking up, man.

If you think about it, since "Buddha" is the past participle of the verbal root "bud", meaning to awaken, Buddhism literally means Wokeism. So it's about being woke for them.

[climb-up]

Most young people in my cultural experience are not very interested in spirituality. This is not unique to Dzogchen or Buddhism as a whole.

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

I think that’s the main thing.
Churches too are not getting many young people; a lot of the big churches in my town (including the one my grandparents were deeply devoted to) are renting space to schools to be able to keep up the buildings.

I wonder if a lot of the greying folks in western dharma centers were raised by religious families and found dharma as a better alternative, whereas a lot of younger people were not raised very, if at all, religiously and don’t look for it.

I have very mixed feelings about the commodified wellness McMindfulness, etc..
it’s generally not my thing, but I think that it helps people in a worldly way, like medicine does, and can plant seeds of dharma teachings, connections to deeper teachings, etc. that all seems pretty good.