Why so gray?

[Johnny Dangerous]

It takes a skillful teacher to take the “I just want something to make life more bearable/happier/optimized” thing and turn it towards Dharma, but it can be done.

I first began practicing because I suspected that Western psychotherapy was too limited to help me go any deeper in looking at my issues, I didn’t walk through the door being into religion.

Young people are right to distrust institutionalized religion, it’s the whole ossified nihilistic worldview that often goes along with that distrust that’s at issue.

The distrust itself is just common sense though, IMO. Religious social structures are often hypocritical and large scale religious practice is usually very shallow.

This is why I think the sort of smaller group model in the US seems to disarm some of that worry about it being “Church”.

[Kai lord]

Just to illustrate how (bad) things were on the ground. Many years ago, I was often regarded one of the youngest in most Buddhist communities that I went to. Today its still the same.

Fortunately, some Asian countries start to pick up in recent years and begins to attract large flock of young people into Buddhism including Vajrayana. Thats a big positive sign.

[merilingpa]

It is indeed very gray, not many young people.
There might be some hope in the big interest for mindfulness practice. It is taught everywhere and not everyone knows most of it comes from Buddhism. Some of it is very basic shamatha with an object kind of practices but there are also alot of other stuff.
But it is difficult for young people to trust especially Tibetan Buddhism with all the scandals that are easy to find online.

[PadmaVonSamba]

The Buddha taught that existence is dukkha, a restless sense of dissatisfaction experienced as suffering.

Whatever things that individuals encounter that they feel address their dukkha, whether it’s drugs or alcohol, religion, political action, or spiritual paths, whatever seems to hit at the root of their inner unrest, they will make a connection to that.

So, one needs to look at a person’s motivation.

Very often, older people will develop an interest in religion or spiritual things because they are late in life and see death on the horizon. Also, they have already done everything else that they were going to do. Things that were fulfilling before, not so much now. It’s not like being young and having the excitement of getting your first apartment or beginning a new career. As with any ‘product’ on the market, there is a need that people have, and the product fills that need.

What is it then? What motivates young people to want to investigate and practice Buddhism, and not see it as simply another stuffy failure created by the previous generation? What needs do young people have that Buddhism would fulfill? I can guess a few things, but probably someone should do an actual survey.

My understanding is that young people today see a bleak future ahead of them, they have little interest in accumulating material objects and are more interested in having experiences rather than accumulating material things. Of course, this depends on demographics. When things represent status, and status is imports, then things are important.

A lot of grey haired Buddhists began in the 1970s. There was a whole spiritual-psychedelic process going on with a lot of people, especially around Tibetan Buddhism just as Zen had been in the 1950s and 1960s. I don’t know that the current widespread easy access to marijuana today (which btw is different, and much more potent than it was 50 years ago) will contribute to a growing interest in Buddhism among young people.
I’m not going to get into whether Buddhism and getting high pair well or not. There are already a few threads here debating that. Let’s just say that once you’ve expanded your mind, you look for a means to expand it again.

Buddhism has a radically different approach to reality compared with materialism. If young people feel that a materialist outlook has created the causes of their dukkha and has led to climate change and capitalist greed or whatever, they may seek the alternatives that they think Buddhism offers.

I think that the instant, snapchatesque and quickly changing world we experience today can leave a person feeling ungrounded. Buddhism provides a sense of connection to something ancient, not fleeting. It’s a depedable refuge. This is also why I think the traditional lineages will continue, the secularists and pragmaticists will not, but only if those directing the lineages are willing to adjust to (without being pulled into) the changes that our present world requires. I think that is happening.

[jet.urgyen]

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

Even worse, if you want to find younger people, you can look into the "pragmatic dharma" movement. But you're not going to like what you find. It's highly secularized, tech-bro style "meditation hacking," Western-centric, and all the rest, except done in the name of a new and improved dharma...

Interesting, i would like to see that a little. Is there a "formal" thing or is more a social "tribe"?.

[Kai lord]

According to the latest studies, the past few years of lockdown, covid, etc and coming global unrest are driving more and more youngsters to become increasingly religious.

The Surprising Surge of Faith Among Young People

[stong gzugs]

Interesting, i would like to see that a little. Is there a "formal" thing or is more a social "tribe"?.

I'm not quite an expert in those communities, and a lot of resources turn up with a google search of it, but here's one early and I think sort of important statement of how the movement sees itself. I think Michael Taft is another figure related to the movement who teaches more specifically from what he describes as a mahamudra/dzogchen type view.

[jet.urgyen]

According to the latest studies, the past few years of lockdown, covid, etc and coming global unrest are driving more and more youngsters to become increasingly religious.

The Surprising Surge of Faith Among Young People

The magic of boredom. The lockdown was a kind offorced "retreat", seems to be, lol.

[jet.urgyen]

Interesting, i would like to see that a little. Is there a "formal" thing or is more a social "tribe"?.

I'm not quite an expert in those communities, and a lot of resources turn up with a google search of it, but here's one early and I think sort of important statement of how the movement sees itself. I think Michael Taft is another figure related to the movement who teaches more specifically from what he describes as a mahamudra/dzogchen type view.

i asked so this way i know what you meant instead of pretending to know and begin to just talk about it .

this are approaches to personal well-being seems to be, hard to tell if might lead somewhere. it reminds me this phrase: 'not for happiness'

thanks.

[dharmafootsteps]

Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.

Even worse, if you want to find younger people, you can look into the "pragmatic dharma" movement. But you're not going to like what you find. It's highly secularized, tech-bro style "meditation hacking," Western-centric, and all the rest, except done in the name of a new and improved dharma...

As someone who some people would probably call a tech-bro, I get confused as to what it even means these days. Seems to be a synonym for “young and uses the internet” at times.

The “pragmatic dharma” movement refers to Daniel Ingram and his offshoots afaik. He’s an MD. Not sure what the tech-bro connection is.

[stong gzugs]

I get confused as to what it even means these days.

Ingram is a figure, but the movement is wider than one person. It's more so the very Bay Area type language you'll hear of "hacking" meditation, optimization, experimentation, etc. If my use of the term is unskillful or unhelpful for you, I'm happy to drop it. This sums up the vibe I have in mind.

[dharmafootsteps]

I get confused as to what it even means these days.

Ingram is a figure, but the movement is wider than one person. It's more so the very Bay Area type language you'll hear of "hacking" meditation, optimization, experimentation, etc. If my use of the term is unskillful or unhelpful for you, I'm happy to drop it. This sums up the vibe I have in mind.

Ok, fair enough, I understand the tech-bro vibes in relation to that app. It's not a big deal though, use the term if you want. I just have a tendency to take umbrage with it.

I generally associate pragmatic dharma with Ingram, and to a wider extent people like Taft, Culadasa, Burbea, Brasington, Harris etc. I guess there's a subset of the movement that is tech-bros who are into those people.

I think it's probably wider than being a tech thing though, in that young people in general, especially who have a scientific education, are probably more likely to be into teachers like that than traditional teachers. I think that's pretty much what you were saying originally. I certainly find my peers are far more likely to take inspiration from one of them than a traditional teacher.

Edit: This makes me think of Yeshi Namkhai - I wonder how this set would relate to his teachings.

[jet.urgyen]

I get confused as to what it even means these days.

Ingram is a figure, but the movement is wider than one person. It's more so the very Bay Area type language you'll hear of "hacking" meditation, optimization, experimentation, etc. If my use of the term is unskillful or unhelpful for you, I'm happy to drop it. This sums up the vibe I have in mind.

it can do, DI is the 'hack' of 'hacks'. not the traditional term, but one can't stomp in the tibetan or sanskrit to youngsters, it is valuable but is not easy to engage in at the begining.

'vibe' has no difference to the 'vibrations' that we are more used to refer to.

chill'out in equipoise, from there comes that's vibe. i'm laughing now, it might work.

[Malcolm]

Not sure if any of this applies to Dzogchen places, but thought I'd share.

Dzogchen does not do well in Dharma centers. It's a practice for isolated places and mountain sides, not shrines and temples. Those are necessary for teaching, but are not really conducive to practice.

[Malcolm]

This sums up the vibe I have in mind.

They'll be disappointed.

ChNN said to one women, who liked his explanations but was more interested in another teacher because she felt more "vibration," "I am sorry I cannot give you any vibration."

[jet.urgyen]

Not sure if any of this applies to Dzogchen places, but thought I'd share.

Dzogchen does not do well in Dharma centers. It's a practice for isolated places and mountain sides, not shrines and temples. Those are necessary for teaching, but are not really conducive to practice.

ChNN himself was an urban yogin, so do i, and afaik you also, no? i mean, we engage in modern world, with all the pro and cons it has.

That said, i don't see why is a practice for isolated places and mountain sides. it would be too deterministic and contraven the 'principle' of integration that the guru thaugt us.

[Malcolm]

ChNN himself was an urban yogin, so do i, and afaik you also, no? i mean, we engage in modern world, with all the pro and cons it has.

I am a rural practitioner, I live in the country surrounded by fields, streams, trees, wild animals, and three neighbors who are not that close to us. I understand that not everyone has the same circumstances.

Rinpoche spent much of his time, especially after he retired in 1992, in isolated retreats, for example, in Namgyalgar north in the Glass Mountains outside of Brisbane, Australia, or Tsegyalgar in NA, or in his retreat house in Merigar, etc., and many other places I am sure.

That said, i don't see why is a practice for isolated places and mountain sides.

We work with circumstances, the best we can but, as it is states in the Tantra Without Syllables:

Furthermore, child of a good family, leave large cities and
abide in a retreat within the great expanse of a forest. Be free
from inner activities and outer activities.


And:

“One must abide in that appearance within a forest without companions,
free of attachment to all outer enjoyments!

Sure, we do not have to live our entire life in isolation. But we do need to go off by ourselves from time to time to be alone and practice outside, in nature, not sitting inside of smoke-filled rooms, chanting texts, and staring at the walls or the floor.

ChNN himself said many times that Dzogchen is a practice best done out of doors. This applies to cities too, but there are some things, like outer rushan, we cannot do in the city.

[jet.urgyen]

ChNN himself was an urban yogin, so do i, and afaik you also, no? i mean, we engage in modern world, with all the pro and cons it has.

I am a rural practitioner, I live in the country surrounded by fields, streams, trees, wild animals, and three neighbors who are not that close to us. I understand that not everyone has the same circumstances.

i see.

Rinpoche spent much of his time, especially after he retired in 1992, in isolated retreats, for example, in Namgyalgar north in the Glass Mountains outside of Brisbane, Australia, or Tsegyalgar in NA, or in his retreat house in Merigar, etc., and many other places I am sure.

That said, i don't see why is a practice for isolated places and mountain sides.

We work with circumstances, the best we can but, as it is states in the Tantra Without Syllables:

Furthermore, child of a good family, leave large cities and
abide in a retreat within the great expanse of a forest. Be free
from inner activities and outer activities.


And:

“One must abide in that appearance within a forest without companions,
free of attachment to all outer enjoyments!

Sure, we do not have to live our entire life in isolation. But we do need to go off by ourselves from time to time to be alone and practice outside, in nature, not sitting inside of smoke-filled rooms, chanting texts, and staring at the walls or the floor.

ChNN himself said many times that Dzogchen is a practice best done out of doors. This applies to cities too, but there are some things, like outer rushan, we cannot do in the city.

i agree, from time to time is really like taking a deep breath.

edit:

However, retirement comes in very late age or in great wealth anytime, so most part of our lives is run under normal modern circumstances. Having kids, family in general, work, etc., to sum up, the common responsibilities, as i understood ChNN's teaching this is not really an obstacle nor a problem, the aim is precisely to integrate that.

[Malcolm]

i agree, from time to time is really like taking a deep breath.

I am glad we agree. I prefer to agree with you rather than disagree.

[jet.urgyen]

i agree, from time to time is really like taking a deep breath.

I am glad we agree. I prefer to agree with you rather than disagree.

i'm glad also Malcolm, i love you and respect you as a brother do, and the same to the fellows here and there. you all are of utmost importance to me.