Why so gray?

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PemaSherab
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by PemaSherab »

ject wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:31 pm
PemaSherab wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:20 pm
ject wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:53 pm I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?
Last week I shaved my beard; it was very gray (unlike the hair on top of my head). By my estimation, I have made western dharma 0.00000000002% less gray. You may thank me later.
Emaho! Thank you for shaving the Buddha Dharma in the West... ;)

You're welcome.

To answer the question more seriously, I think there might be some openness in the younger generations. I can only speak for my experience as a college professor in the rural deeeeeep south of the USA. The vast majority of my students are under 22, and it is incredible how many of them are searching for their own identity in a culture that demands conformity. I think this is a huge positive and an act of courage that could lead to them looking outside the dominant, authoritarian, normative, hegemonic paradigm they find at home and within their social circles. When I combine this with the heartbreaking fact that many of my students ( and their parents, grandparents, etc.) live every day confronted by the first noble truth (poverty,addicition, death, illness, abuse) I see the causes and conditions for a portion of them to seek out the Dharma , or at least, a differnt way of seeing the world than the one that has been foisted on them.

Many of my students have two jobs and are oligated to care for thir parents (or other relatives) and ,often times, their own children. They don't feel like they have time for luxury of just sitting.


Finally, far too many of them are taught to supress their dreams. They are not encouraged to develop any kind of inner life or introspection. Heck, many of students come from a culture that is not only illiterate , but that is passionately anti-literate. Reading, as has been mentioned in this thread , was fundamental for many of us discovering the Dharma, and for mny it is simply off the table. Perhaps some Lama will host Twitch or TikTok meditation sessions and teachings.

TL/DR I see the potential for many young people to embrace the Dharma, but it will be a Herculean (if not Sisyphean ) endeavor.
Q:Is the ability “to see what is in front of us” a way of escaping from the image-prison which surrounds us?
A: Very definitely, yes. But this is an ability which very few people have, and fewer and fewer as time passes.

Excerpt From
The Job
William S. Burroughs
rainbow_light
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by rainbow_light »

ject wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 5:53 pm where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?
I'm relatively young I guess - 31 - and a native of a western country. I've been interested in Dzogchen for about 7 years and have been a member of ChNN's IDC for about 5 years. I became interested in Buddhism at the age of 17 through reading Wikipedia. I was first exposed to Theravada Buddhism, and soon encountered the DharmaOverground forum and Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, which had a big influence on me. The DhO forum seems to attract a relatively greater number of young, typically male, practitioners. I still frequent this forum and have noticed a pretty significant interest in Mahamudra and Dzogchen. There is some recognition among DhO members that the typical pragmatic dharma approach, as espoused in MCTB, has its limitations, which can be balanced out by the Dzogchen view and practices. My transition to Dzogchen was instigated primarily by an intuition of these limitations. I've since developed a relationship with a teacher of Vajrayana who has taught me an anuttarayoga class practice, which is currently my main practice. I've done a couple of retreats, no longer than one month, but otherwise I've lived in ordinary circumstances as a lay person with a full-time job in IT. My experiences would affirm the perception that there is a relative lack of younger Dzogchen practitioners. It's difficult to account for why that might be the case. Some possible highly speculative explanations:
  • People new to Buddhism are more likely to encounter Theravada or Mahayana teachings: the most popular touchpoints for potentially new Buddhists, e.g. meditation apps such as Headspace, the main Wikipedia article on Buddhism, the most popular Buddhist authors, etc. - they all introduce non-Dzogchen forms of Buddhism. Dzogchen is something one is perhaps more likely to encounter having passed through these initial forms, for whatever reasons.
  • Other forms of Buddhism have lower barriers to entry: e.g. I was able to achieve real benefits from my Theravada Buddhist practice without ever having developed a relationship with a teacher or needing to receive transmissions. It goes without saying that the Pali teachings are simpler to understand and apply, being more grounded in relative truth than ultimate truth compared to Dzogchen.
  • A relative lack of inspirational Dzogchen/Mahamudra teachers currently active compared to the 1980s.
  • Distraction caused by increasing usage of technology may be a huge reason, as this seems to run counter to the spirit of Dzogchen practice, but is practically unavoidable. I can attest, as someone who works in front of a screen all day, having to focus narrowly on technical details, it can feel as if my Dzogchen practice is seriously hindered by such conditions, which is discouraging. Whereas any time I need walk around outside, I feel such conditions are much more conducive to practice. With that said, I'm strongly disinclined to conclude that Dzogchen is not suitable for lay people in my situation for various reasons.
  • Various forms of conditioning may dissuade many young westerners from seriously engaging with guru devotion, especially in the context of a personal relationship with a teacher. It's personally taken me years to come around to such a practice and slough off the many ego-based objections that can arise. Compared to previous generations, young people may be even more wary of entering such a relationship, e.g. in the wake of so many sexual abuse scandals.
There may be more of an appetite for Dzogchen, and dharma practice generally, in the coming decades, due to the following factors:
  • The potential of AI is fully realized, resulting in mass unemployment or reduced working hours. Many people are thrust into a state of existential angst caused by redundancy.
  • The crumbling of civilization caused by the myriad consequences of climate change, environmental destruction, and resource shortages. It becomes clear to many people that material circumstances are not a reliable source of satisfaction, which causes them to turn to dharma practice to achieve inner peace in the face of outer chaos.
merilingpa
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by merilingpa »

Giovanni wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:07 pm I believe a movie was made of Harrer’s book starring Brad Pitt?
Nice movie called seven years in Tibet.
His Holiness The Dalai Lama was friends with him until he died, always visited when around......and greeted him on his birthdays :smile:
Montoya
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Montoya »

I think people here are underestimating the collision of the internet with scandals across the spectrum of Buddhist communities. When I got interested in Buddhism in my teens in the 90s, there was still a certain mystique around practice and teachers that is not the same today. Lack of detailed information about teachers meant you had to explore, visit centers in person and by the time you were exposed to the type of info that might sow doubt, you were often far enough along in your journey that it wasn't that big of a deal. As we now know, there were plenty of scandals back then as well, but most were fairly hidden and the ones that weren't were few enough in numbers that they were easily waved off as one-offs.

Fast forward to today and there is not a single tradition untainted by scandal, often of the most salacious types, generally involving sex and/or money. Kids these days face all the same existential questions and curiosities as previous generations did, but that curiosity generally slams head on into questions of legitimacy and hypocrisy upon a simple Google search.
Malcolm
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Malcolm »

The answer could not be clearer. In order to even meet the Dharma, one must have a certain amount of merit. If there are less Dharma practitioners in the world, it' clearly a reflection of the degeneration of merit, manifesting in the age of the five degenerations.
Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:50 pm The answer could not be clearer. In order to even meet the Dharma, one must have a certain amount of merit. If there are less Dharma practitioners in the world, it' clearly a reflection of the degeneration of merit, manifesting in the age of the five degenerations.
:good:

Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:07 pm Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
Unfortunately this is not a rare characteristic of “senior students”. I’ve never understood the concept of dharma snobs, but they are a thing.

I am now more than twice the age I was when became a Buddhist, and I think at least half of the local sangha I joined then has died since.
EMPTIFUL.
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Kai lord
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Kai lord »

Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:50 pm The answer could not be clearer. In order to even meet the Dharma, one must have a certain amount of merit. If there are less Dharma practitioners in the world, it' clearly a reflection of the degeneration of merit, manifesting in the age of the five degenerations.
:good:

Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
When I first entered Vajrayana, I get frowned upon and ridiculed by the old guards whenever I questioned about the details of the practice commitments. :zzz:

Youngsters or newcomers these days mocked at those doing practice commitments. Want shortcut and quick success for everything. :rolleye:

What a time to be alive and born between these two generations. :rolling:
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Giovanni
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Giovanni »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:52 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:07 pm Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
Unfortunately this is not a rare characteristic of “senior students”. I’ve never understood the concept of dharma snobs, but they are a thing.

I am now more than twice the age I was when became a Buddhist, and I think at least half of the local sangha I joined then has died since.
This is very accurate. My first empowerment was from Thrangu Rinpoche when I was a young man. I arrived early and was made to feel like an interloper by Rinpoche’s senior students who took on an unneeded role as security guards..the venue was a University campus during the vacation period.there was no one around apart from the course attendees. They were clearly motivated by possessiveness rather than any real need to ‘protect’ Rinpoche! It could have been very off putting.
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PemaSherab
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by PemaSherab »

Giovanni wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:12 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:52 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:07 pm Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
Unfortunately this is not a rare characteristic of “senior students”. I’ve never understood the concept of dharma snobs, but they are a thing.

I am now more than twice the age I was when became a Buddhist, and I think at least half of the local sangha I joined then has died since.
This is very accurate. My first empowerment was from Thrangu Rinpoche when I was a young man. I arrived early and was made to feel like an interloper by Rinpoche’s senior students who took on an unneeded role as security guards..the venue was a University campus during the vacation period.there was no one around apart from the course attendees. They were clearly motivated by possessiveness rather than any real need to ‘protect’ Rinpoche! It could have been very off putting.
I'm very glad that I never experienced this sort of thing during my early days.
Q:Is the ability “to see what is in front of us” a way of escaping from the image-prison which surrounds us?
A: Very definitely, yes. But this is an ability which very few people have, and fewer and fewer as time passes.

Excerpt From
The Job
William S. Burroughs
Kai lord
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Kai lord »

Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
oldbob
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

All excellent posts.

My 2 cents.

Two questions of the OP:

I have visited few events, in person and over the web, and they have all been very gray.
It makes one kinda worried - where is the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners?


Since we are in the Dzogchen section, for me as a Dzogchen practitioner, I have no issue with things appearing "gray" or any color. Whatever appears, it is my job to view / accept it (in a non-dual way) as "pure from the beginning" and "spontaneously arising" without any comment or elaboration. From the view point of luminosity, gray - or any negative emotion /feeling - is just fine as it is: it appears and vanishes without a trace.

From the "eight-worldly's" perspective (not Dzogchen) it is my job to recognize gray as being one of the "eight-worldlys" (unhappiness) and not be carried away by it.

https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki ... y_concerns

So if Dzogchen doesn't work, then use practices from whatever source is appropriate, and works, for you. Everything is included (allowed as appropriate) in Dzogchen.

As to concern about where the next wave of western Dzogchen practitioners will come from - not to worry - not your job - not my job. Maybe the job of the living Dzogchen Masters. Maybe the job of the Members of the International Dzogchen Community who could write to their governing bodies and request open access to the Digital Archive of ChNN with practice links to living lineage holders for empowerment, reading authorizations, and oral explanations. Then there will be many new waves of western (and eastern) Dzogchen practitioners.

:heart:
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Harimoo »

Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
Gatekeeping behaviour is a real problem. Sometimes it has its origin in previous disappointments. You welcome newcomers, help them, teach them and they leave.

I see a lot of turn-over in sangha. Only few people stay more than a year.
florin
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by florin »

Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight….
Recently i attended 3 empowerments offered by Sechen Rabjam R. and such behaviour was very evident.
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by jet.urgyen »

Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
what is Gatekeeping?

edit: oh, i'm reading upstream now. not good.
true dharma is inexpressible.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Giovanni wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:12 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:52 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:07 pm Also, when I first started going to dharma centers and tsoks a decade ago I couldn’t help but notice that older practitioners were extremely unwelcoming and downright possessive when it came to teachers/teachings. As if new, younger practitioners were infringing on their thing.
Unfortunately this is not a rare characteristic of “senior students”. I’ve never understood the concept of dharma snobs, but they are a thing.

I am now more than twice the age I was when became a Buddhist, and I think at least half of the local sangha I joined then has died since.
This is very accurate. My first empowerment was from Thrangu Rinpoche when I was a young man. I arrived early and was made to feel like an interloper by Rinpoche’s senior students who took on an unneeded role as security guards..the venue was a University campus during the vacation period.there was no one around apart from the course attendees. They were clearly motivated by possessiveness rather than any real need to ‘protect’ Rinpoche! It could have been very off putting.
I’ve experienced this at my first empowerment as well. Generally this is one reason among many that I have always kept a distance from larger practice groups.
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Virgo
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Virgo »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:44 pm Most young people in my cultural experience are not very interested in spirituality. This is not unique to Dzogchen or Buddhism as a whole.
I think it is largely because society has become more atheistic and tends to lean more towards physical materialism in general rather than religion combined with a lack of exposure and/or a cultural legacy of Dharma paths, meaning people often investigate Abrahamic paths and then reject them and just put the whole "religion" thing to bed, along with increased knowledge of the faults and sometimes disgusting behaviors and misconduct perpetrated by religious teachers/authorities, over-reliance on things like neuro-science for answering existential questions (which just harkens back the physical materialism), having more expensive educations to pay for and a harder time creating financial stability in general (more focus needs to be put on it), the greater accessibility of distractions like streaming services, video-game systems, and so forth.

The reality is we have entered the age of the five generations wherein individuals have increasingly less merit.

At the moment, we are still in a good time to practice Dharma. It's unlikely that will be the case for too much longer, though. That is all the more reason for people to enter and practice now should they have the possibility.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:44 pm Most that do approach it as “wellness” thing, and don’t understand the distinction between that and Dharma, which leads to all kinds of issues.
That is a serious issue. More people are approaching it from a less religious perspective, which causes them not to stick around.

In any event, now is a good time to practice.

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ject
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by ject »

Harimoo wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:15 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
Gatekeeping behaviour is a real problem. Sometimes it has its origin in previous disappointments. You welcome newcomers, help them, teach them and they leave.

I see a lot of turn-over in sangha. Only few people stay more than a year.
So called gatekeeping is not just happening in dharma centres but in may different Dharma related `environments`, if you will.
I have experienced both. The latest visit to a dharma centre in a foreign country I happened to be, was actually really nice. The guy in charge was a really a friendly and relaxed old-timer.

As times are changing, not always for the better, online "environments" - I am sure there is a better word for it - have are become very important entry points for newcomers.
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by PeterC »

ject wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:10 pm
Harimoo wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:15 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
Gatekeeping behaviour is a real problem. Sometimes it has its origin in previous disappointments. You welcome newcomers, help them, teach them and they leave.

I see a lot of turn-over in sangha. Only few people stay more than a year.
So called gatekeeping is not just happening in dharma centres but in may different Dharma related `environments`, if you will.
I have experienced both. The latest visit to a dharma centre in a foreign country I happened to be, was actually really nice. The guy in charge was a really a friendly and relaxed old-timer.

As times are changing, not always for the better, online "environments" - I am sure there is a better word for it - have are become very important entry points for newcomers.
It’s not just a dharma phenomenon. The vast majority of social activities organized around a central person involve an entourage of - usually - self-appointed people who insert themselves between that person and newcomers.

I’m not sure it’s something worth getting too upset about in a dharma context since it’s so common in other contexts. Or rather: getting upset about it will unequivocally be bad for your own practice in many ways.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Why so gray?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Harimoo wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:15 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:21 pm Gatekeeping behaviour is a common sight everywhere and continues to this day. For example Garchen institute, etc.
Probably a habit carried over from their secular love lives into a religious one.
Fortunately such petty actions no longer affect me or any like minded people as our gurus constantly dwell at our hearts and a face to face meeting is no longer necessary.
Gatekeeping behaviour is a real problem. Sometimes it has its origin in previous disappointments. You welcome newcomers, help them, teach them and they leave.

I see a lot of turn-over in sangha. Only few people stay more than a year.
There's a lot of turnover in every special-interest group, whether it's tennis or entomology or dharma. A lot of people realise very quickly that it's not their kind of group, so they only show up a couple of times. Others attend for long enough to satisfy a particular need, and then leave. Others again would keep attending except that they get a new job/partner/pet/disability/whatever.
You could just about plot it as as exponential decline - 100% come once, 50% come four times, 25% .., 12% ... etc

:coffee:
Kim
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