debating and attitude in the meantime

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jet.urgyen
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debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by jet.urgyen »

As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
Just read the terms of service. Things get personal enough they get shut down. There’s some leeway but when conversations just become a back forth festival of complaints, accusations, etc. they get locked.

Any sort of personal feud can be conducted via PM, as long as both parties agree, but on the forum, no.

There are lots of places on the internet to have knock-down drag out debates where ad hominem attacks, etc. go unmoderated, but this is not one of them.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by SilenceMonkey »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
In Tibetan debates, the monks will insult each other left and right in order to throw the opponent off guard. They throw in really personal insults alongside challenging questions about the nature of reality. They have to learn to grow a thick skin and not take any of it personally, and to perform with wisdom in the fire of these situations.

Their goal is to bring each other’s wisdom and realization to a high level, to test their dharma friends’ realization. (Ideally) Most of the time, it’s a samsaric competition and exchange of insults. But the actual purpose is to refine each other’s views under the pressure of scrutiny.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Malcolm »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”
jet.urgyen
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by jet.urgyen »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:34 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
In Tibetan debates, the monks will insult each other left and right in order to throw the opponent off guard. They throw in really personal insults alongside challenging questions about the nature of reality. They have to learn to grow a thick skin and not take any of it personally, and to perform with wisdom in the fire of these situations.

Their goal is to bring each other’s wisdom and realization to a high level, to test their dharma friends’ realization. (Ideally) Most of the time, it’s a samsaric competition and exchange of insults. But the actual purpose is to refine each other’s views under the pressure of scrutiny.
you helped me greatly to understand.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by krodha »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
You said some wild stuff and got flamed for it... should probably just accept it and take it on the chin. The response you got was not undeserved. Also an apology would be nice.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Kim O'Hara »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 6:31 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:34 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
In Tibetan debates, the monks will insult each other left and right in order to throw the opponent off guard. They throw in really personal insults alongside challenging questions about the nature of reality. They have to learn to grow a thick skin and not take any of it personally, and to perform with wisdom in the fire of these situations.

Their goal is to bring each other’s wisdom and realization to a high level, to test their dharma friends’ realization. (Ideally) Most of the time, it’s a samsaric competition and exchange of insults. But the actual purpose is to refine each other’s views under the pressure of scrutiny.
you helped me greatly to understand.
I hope you also understand that the rules of formal Tibetan debates do not apply here.

:namaste:
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Giovanni »

The nature of debate is important. Most of us expect debate to be conducted according Right Speech. HYT and Dzogchen does not somehow free us from the obligation to observe the N8FP.
There are many English speakers who are Dzogchen students. It is perhaps instructive to ask why the same small group of members dominate discussion on Dharma Wheel.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by merilingpa »

I think you should treat people and their opinions in the same way that you do with a Dharma friend in real life and not hide behind the internet.
An attitude of respect is always good.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Drenpa »

jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
Silence is often the most, or only appropriate response. When someone is asserting a position that is purely a projection of their own bias and affliction, and are in that moment so invested in their creation they won't listen to anyone who doesn't support their projections, there's not much to say.

As far as insults go, this is also mostly a matter of the perceptions of the one hearing, not the one speaking, or any third party listning. Just as it is with all speech. We can do our best to speak clearly, simply even, and articulate something precise to our way of thinking. There is no guarantee that it is received or understood as such, but it's normal to want to try. There are many examples of teachers and practitioners who out of good motivation and concern, do their best to help others see their errors. Sometimes even scolding or using sharp language and insults. Especially after multiple attempts to communicate.

In the assertions of bad behavior and singling out in this thread related to scolding or sharp language, it's truly not the business of anyone other than the one offering correction, and the one being upbraided in the specific circumstance.

Longchenpa was at times provocative in his comments about certain ideas and attitudes. He saw them as clear signs of a lack of understanding in one way or another and called them out, sometimes very specifically and pointedly.

In commenting on this process of having pure motivation, yet using sharp language in attempting to help someone see their serious fault and not go deeper into the error, he said, in "Advice from the Heart":
Without any selfish motive, you may tell people you love,
With the intention of helping them, their mistakes.
Yet although what you say is true, your words are like a tumor in
their heart. Speak gently! This is my advice from the heart.
This is the real situation, yet he and other teachers with seemingly endless patience, continue to try to reason with people. So do other practitioners as in the thread leading up to this.

So, to question the motivation of a serious practitioner working with circumstances, who is also respected teacher and vajra brother to sow doubts in others minds is ill advised.

Only the person offering correction knows their motivation. In this case, the advice is offered for a specific person. Who are we to say how that person should take it, and if it helps or hurts? This only muddies the water and perhaps exposes our own projection and motives as suspect.

As far as the wider criticism made by "Jet.Urgyen" towards the entire DC and those who follow ChNNR, it's completely at odds with what Elio Guarisco wrote. The following was published to the world in the Mirror, Dec 2019 after the parinirvana of ChNNR:
By Elio Guarisco

On the anniversary of the birthday
of the One whose name is difficult
to pronounce
I recall his unfathomable qualities
that remodeled mine and many other’s minds.

Once met on the ways of
inscrutable connections

the meaning of countless
teachings received from
many kind teachers
became clear like a bright lamp
in the night.

The concepts of the ordinary
spiritual ways collapsed like
an old broken bridge
not to be rebuilt again.

Any desire for dialectic confrontation
seen as the play of children
disappeared like mist
with the arising of the sun.

The attachment to philosophical views
became like an empty banana tree
after it gave the fruit of the small bananas.

The desire for secret instructions
and initiations came to an end
like the river in winter on the plains
of India.

The excitement of tantric practices
was replaced by the understanding that
the very essence of what people call meditation
is nothing but unfocused presence.

The search for a separate empty nature of the mind
to be discovered like a treasure by effort
was replaced by relaxing in non action
the un-conceptualized essence of mind.

Meditation as familiarization with a focus
and stressful mindfulness that grasp at the present moment
and at being twice aware of oneself
has dissolved in the understanding of effortless contemplation.

The ambition for positions of responsibility
and power was shunned
like the stench of a pigsty.

The artifice of working for others
gave way to replaced continuous activity
devoid of a deliberate aim
that ripens others’ capacities.

The sense of being a Buddhist
melted in the sense of not belonging
to anything.

Even the sense of being a practitioner
of one’s own cherished teaching
holds no real grip on oneself.

Now you have gone
and left us orphans
in the middle of a desert

yet you have carved
an invisible map
in our heart

you have placed in our hands
an invisible lamp.

Your unceasing activity
transpires and shines
through the light of your
seemingly ordinary students.

Although your imposing and
magnificent presence
resembling that of the great Siddha Virupa
has dissolved into luminous space

you have left behind a line of skilled students
who are beyond the torment of doubt
and who unpretentiously
and in different ways nail
the essence of your teaching
for the future generation.
So the assertion about most DC members being "pretenders" completely contradicts what Elio said here.

It also contradicts the upadesha of the teacher, and what it says about the students who follow in the proper way.

It contradicts what the Dzogchen scriptures say that when certain conditions manifest, we can be certain that the teacher, the teaching, and the retinue are perfect.

Javier, your assertions contradict what everyone has been trying to tell you the past few days. You've gone this route before and been totally wrong. Are you completely unwilling to at least seriously consider that this isn't a similar situation, though perhaps more serious?
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Norwegian »

Thank you Drenpa.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Oh, apologies. It looks like my comment was out of context. Tibetan style debates are very different than the kind of discourse we have on forums such as this one.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:52 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”
I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word “posers” was used.

In this quote from Dec 2018 (‘How Do We Know Our Practice Is Working’)
jet says:
actually this are inmediate effects, or should be :P. in dzogchen there are no middle terms, you have certainty or not. it's that simple.

most of us are just pretenders.

I would like to know what exactly was meant by that term in this context, because being totally honest with oneself is actually a challenge for many people, and even when we are practicing with full effort and sincerity, I think that god many people, Buddhism still never gets past being a hypothetical proposition (which is often the very reason why a great teacher will sometimes create for a student an upsetting ‘moment of truth’ situation, whacking them yanking their hair or whatever).
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sat May 27, 2023 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:52 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:29 pm As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?
One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”
I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word “posers” was used.
“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:40 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:52 am

One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”
I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word “posers” was used.
“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing. :smile:
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jet.urgyen
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by jet.urgyen »

Please fellows, let's stay on topic, on the propper manner.

I already made a respectful debate question to Malcolm and for 3 days it remained unanswered, and then the topic got closed because the discussion produced much agitation.

I don't want this post also being closed because we cant talk in a civilized way. Maybe that was the aim of some in the other post where we debated.

Back to the point of the conversation here,

Certainly it is not good, for the sake of the conversation, to reach the level of insults. Is of any use? If you don't like something, is it reason enough to loose your temper and ruin a serious conversation?
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:40 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:27 pm

I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word “posers” was used.
“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing. :smile:
There is always a trade off between literalism and actual meaning.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Malcolm »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:49 pm Please fellows, let's stay on topic, on the propper manner.

I already made a respectful debate question to Malcolm and for 3 days it remained unanswered, and then the topic got closed because the discussion produced much agitation.
I answered your question. You were not satisfied with the answer. You wanted to know why there were no realized people in the DC, I told you no one can tell from outside who is realized and who is not.

If you want respect, you have to show respect.

Certainly it is not good, for the sake of the conversation, to reach the level of insults.

Someone should have thought of that before they insulted the Dzogchen Community, someone who apparently now is pleading for civil discourse.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:50 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:40 pm

“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing. :smile:
There is always a trade off between literalism and actual meaning.
Posing is generally done to create a false impression about oneself upon others, and involves pretending. But pretending, by itself, doesn’t necessarily involve posing. Especially in the context of Buddhist practice, and perhaps greatly in Tibetan Buddhism which provides so many props and activities. it’s easy to pretend to oneself that one is sincerely practicing, without ever even cutting through one layer of mental bullshit, without developing any genuine compassion.

I don’t know if this is what jet.urgyen was suggesting, and admittedly I am not familiar specifically with his previous posts or general tone used when posting. But I would be interested in hearing his (or maybe it’s her) defense of that term.
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Re: debating and attitude in the meantime

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:50 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:48 pm
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing. :smile:
There is always a trade off between literalism and actual meaning.
Posing is generally done to create a false impression about oneself upon others, and involves pretending. But pretending, by itself, doesn’t necessarily involve posing. Especially in the context of Buddhist practice, and perhaps greatly in Tibetan Buddhism which provides so many props and activities. it’s easy to pretend to oneself that one is sincerely practicing, without ever even cutting through one layer of mental bullshit, without developing any genuine compassion.

I don’t know if this is what jet.urgyen was suggesting, and admittedly I am not familiar specifically with his previous posts or general tone used when posting. But I would be interested in hearing his (or maybe it’s her) defense of that term.
He said that most people in the DC were pretending to be realized. I and others took umbrage at his suggestion.
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