The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

[Sādhaka]

That is in theory, I was pointing out the practicality.

Well yea, the mentioned Dzogchen manuals are pretty much referring to ones who are in isolated retreat, and who are also getting closer to the Fruition/Result in a practical sense.

Again though, we can’t judge who is at the level or sphere of a rim gyi pa, thod rgal pa, or cig car ba; as—aside from maybe in the case of a high level clairvoyant—only the individual themselves can know that.

[stoneinfocus]

I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan", he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

Yes, though your statement regarding unstable rigpa implied that one needs path of transformation practices, when stabilizing rigpa does not.

The option is there, of course, nobody is denying that.

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

Your exact quote was, "Don't 'need' is dependent on rigpa being stable. When rigpa isn't stable it is a very different story", which again implies that you need path of transformation practices if rigpa is not stable, which is debatable.

[heart]

Yes, though your statement regarding unstable rigpa implied that one needs path of transformation practices, when stabilizing rigpa does not.

The option is there, of course, nobody is denying that.

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

Your exact quote was, "Don't 'need' is dependent on rigpa being stable. When rigpa isn't stable it is a very different story", which again implies that you need path of transformation practices if rigpa is not stable, which is debatable.

Well, it is very helpful because the development and perfection stages is very effective for us to actually understand what our mind actually is and have many methods for going beyond mind. Also metods for accumulation of merit, purification of samaya, methods for prolonging your life overcome obstacles and many other such things. Also I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

[cloudburst]

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

"you dont need to do these but everyone always has and always does"

[Malcolm]

including ChNNR.

He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

[heart]

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

"you dont need to do these but everyone always has and always does"

That is not what I am saying. You can do whatever please you.

[merilingpa]

Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................

[heart]

including ChNNR.

He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

[stoneinfocus]

Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................

And that's what they are. Secondary. Not the primary practice.

[Jules 09]

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.

"you dont need to do these but everyone always has and always does"

That is not what I am saying. You can do whatever please you.

Heart wrote:

You can do whatever please you.

Yes, always important to remember this.

“𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗟𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗦𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝗳 𝗗𝗼 𝗔𝘀 𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗣𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗲”
𝘣𝘺 𝘕𝘢𝘮𝘬𝘩𝘢𝘪 𝘕𝘰𝘳𝘣𝘶 𝘙𝘪𝘯𝘱𝘰𝘤𝘩𝘦

Homage to the master!

The incomparable father, Ever Good The Lord, Knowledge holder Changchub Dorje Who resides in the dimension of the essential sphere At the center of his son's heart, my heart, Inseparable from it in any moment.

This is the sum of the practice of the Teaching, and that's enough to give me complete satisfaction. I don't aspire to false religious practice. This is the basis for all the experiences of the practice and for its realization. I don't aspire to the commitment that's required for the meditative process of creation and perfection.

[Malcolm]

There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?

If that is your system, then it's obviously good that you have confidence in it. But isn't there a special subforum for NR's followers now? But more nuanced understandings are also possible.

(PS. These are not "my" 10 million mantras, just the number recommended in Longchen Nyingthig Ati Yoga instructions from Dilgo Khyentse.)

That special forum is dispute resolution forum.

Dilgo Khyentse is not my teacher. His instructions to his students are not relevant to me. I respect them, but it is not how I was trained. BTW, the main problem is that people who follow this more "traditional" approach keep on telling people who practice in the DC that they are doing it wrong. This convo started because there is this guy telling people they can't practice trekcho until they attain the first bhumi. And to do that, they need to practice śamatha for ten hours a day, every day. Then the proliferation in this thread spread from there.

I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan", he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

Garab Dorje very precisely explains how to recognize your own nature in many texts.

Dzogchen transmission does not need to happen in the context of a formal empowerment. Sometimes that method can be used. But it is not necessary, but it can be useful for some.

As to empowerments, longde for example depends on an empowerment of Ngondzog Gyalpo because Dzeng Dharmabodhi combined this Anuyoga empowerment with the Longde instructions. But prior to him there was no such Longde empowerment. The man ngag sde lower two empowerments are also influenced by Anuyoga. Tibetans, ChNN explained, like empowerments, and don't really take things seriously unless there is an empowerment. I have also see this attitude among western students. They receive transmission of guru yoga, which gives them permission to practice all Dzogchen methods, or even practice transformation practices with a simple lung transmission, but they are not happy and they want to participate in a complicated ritual. Sometimes, there is a very good reason to give an empowerment in a more elaborate style, but that depends on circumstances. My main point, is that we should make the same distinction Longchenpa does:

These maintain the object of focus through the wish for the cessation of subject and object. Since they are an approach to control thoughts, they are a method of being introduced to the profound Dharma, but they are not the profound actual yoga.

[Malcolm]

including ChNNR.

He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................

Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.

[Tata1]

He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................

Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.

Maybe malcom you could pm how many practices all the jñana dakini cycle are? I still cant figure it out

[Malcolm]

I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred of them.................

Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.

Maybe malcom you could pm how many practices all the jñana dakini cycle are? I still cant figure it out

Four: Mandarava (1), Gomadevi (1), Jñānaḍākinī (2 versions, slightly different), Guhyajñāna (1), plus some long life instructions not connected to Mandarava. From what I understand, ChNN himself mainly relied Mandarava and Jñānaḍākinī, but maybe someone has better information.

[heart]

Longchenpa also wrote many sadhanas, found termas and practiced many sadhanas himself, he even practiced annutarayoga tantra practices from Sarma school. In general I don't have anything against what you say Malcolm about getting direct introduction and that is enough to practice the methods of Dzogchen. However the way the Tibetans do in general kept the Dzogchen tradition alive for a very long time, I think that is worth a little respect. If there was some kind of Dzogchen zen-like tradition, free from Vajrayana, more than thousands of years ago sounds a little like speculation at this point but if you want revive it I wish you good luck. My personal idea is that Dzogchen, as it is practiced today, is neck deep in Vajrayana and that this is a blessing rather than a fault. I got my first direct introduction 30 years ago and so far none of my teachers told me to avoid Maha and Anu yoga, in fact they encouraged me to continue with it. That is all.

[heart]

He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

Yes, yet you make it sound like Anuyoga don't work, only Dzogchen work. Why is that?

[jet.urgyen]

As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.



Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.

Maybe malcom you could pm how many practices all the jñana dakini cycle are? I still cant figure it out

Four: Mandarava (1), Gomadevi (1), Jñānaḍākinī (2 versions, slightly different), Guhyajñāna (1), plus some long life instructions not connected to Mandarava. From what I understand, ChNN himself mainly relied Mandarava and Jñānaḍākinī, but maybe someone has better information.

The dhakinni cycle has anu and ati. The thugthig i have here in mi hand is an ati method, it has the anuyoga form, but just the form.

[Zoey85]

If there was some kind of Dzogchen zen-like tradition, free from Vajrayana, more than thousands of years ago sounds a little like speculation at this point but if you want revive it I wish you good luck. My personal idea is that Dzogchen, as it is practiced today, is neck deep in Vajrayana and that this is a blessing rather than a fault.

At the risk of sounding like a b**ch or something, I would just point out that vajrayana is not reading a bunch of papers and thinking of a bunch of deities, it's a lifestyle. Maybe in that lifestyle we like reading papers, but maybe we don't either. And that's just fine, as my mother always likes to say.

But if someone practices dzogchen without outer vajrayana practices it certainly doesn't mean that they might not experience a very vajrayana world.

[heart]

If there was some kind of Dzogchen zen-like tradition, free from Vajrayana, more than thousands of years ago sounds a little like speculation at this point but if you want revive it I wish you good luck. My personal idea is that Dzogchen, as it is practiced today, is neck deep in Vajrayana and that this is a blessing rather than a fault.

At the risk of sounding like a b**ch or something, I would just point out that vajrayana is not reading a bunch of papers and thinking of a bunch of deities, it's a lifestyle. Maybe in that lifestyle we like reading papers, but maybe we don't either. And that's just fine, as my mother always likes to say.

But if someone practices dzogchen without outer vajrayana practices it certainly doesn't mean that they might not experience a very vajrayana world.

I don't understand what you are trying to say Zoey. You think I am just "reading a bunch of papers"?

[natusake]

Longchenpa also wrote many sadhanas, found termas and practiced many sadhanas himself, he even practiced annutarayoga tantra practices from Sarma school. In general I don't have anything against what you say Malcolm about getting direct introduction and that is enough to practice the methods of Dzogchen. However the way the Tibetans do in general kept the Dzogchen tradition alive for a very long time, I think that is worth a little respect. If there was some kind of Dzogchen zen-like tradition, free from Vajrayana, more than thousands of years ago sounds a little like speculation at this point but if you want revive it I wish you good luck. My personal idea is that Dzogchen, as it is practiced today, is neck deep in Vajrayana and that this is a blessing rather than a fault. I got my first direct introduction 30 years ago and so far none of my teachers told me to avoid Maha and Anu yoga, in fact they encouraged me to continue with it. That is all.

Dzogchen and its methods are not outside of Vajrayana. They are the essence of Vajrayana.