The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:15 pm
Why do you call it guru yoga why not just call it trechö?

...

I never created the Guru in front when doing Guru Yoga with a white Ah.
Because trekcho and thogal are guru yoga, and guru yoga is trekcho and thogal. There is no difference between the two. Trekcho and thogal is being in the knowledge that our gurus point out. How could trekcho and thogal be anything other than guru yoga? Ati Guru Yoga, trekcho, and thogal are not different things.

Ati Guru Yoga and Guru Yoga of the White A are different practices.

But whenever you did the short thun, then you indeed created Garab Dorje and then dissolved him.

I know you took some teachings from CHNN, but I fail to understand why you argue with us about what ChNN taught. He is our root guru, we studied with him for decades, attended SMS teachings, and so on. We know much better than you what he taught.

We never argue with you about what Chokyi Nyima etc., teaches. I would appreciate it if you would tender us the same respect. Thanks.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun May 28, 2023 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:22 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:09 pm

I mean, I do every day, but you don't need to do any sort of formal practice to rest in rigpa for a bit. You can just look and connect. Or sometimes, it just happens and you rest in it as long as you can. That's still guru yoga.
It has a name, it called Trechö.
...Also referred to as "the state of guruyoga".

I refer you to your own post: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4416
That was Phachok Rinpoche calling "Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present". Nevertheless, you should consider that not everyone know the lingo from DC.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:15 pm
Why do you call it guru yoga why not just call it trechö?

...

I never created the Guru in front when doing Guru Yoga with a white Ah.
Because trekcho and thogal are guru yoga, and guru yoga is trekcho and thogal. There is no difference between the two. Trekcho and thogal is being in the knowledge that our gurus point out. How could trekcho and thogal be anything other than guru yoga? Ati Guru Yoga, trekcho, and thogal are not different things.

Ati Guru Yoga and Guru Yoga of the White A are different practices.

But whenever you did the short thun, then you indeed created Garab Dorje and then dissolved him.
I do Ati Guru Yoga with a white Ah. No Garab Dorje. Don't do the short tun. I also do other Guru Yogas with the Guru in front, the Guru over my head, the Guru in my heart and the effect is exactly the same with all of them.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
stoneinfocus
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stoneinfocus »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:29 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:22 pm

It has a name, it called Trechö.
...Also referred to as "the state of guruyoga".

I refer you to your own post: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4416
That was Phachok Rinpoche calling "Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present". Nevertheless, you should consider that not everyone know the lingo from DC.
Phakchok Rinpoche is clearly explaining resting in equipoise as guru yoga, hence why I linked the post. I don't think it's so much "DC lingo"; guru yoga doesn't suddenly mean something different outside of the DC, as in Phakchok Rinpoche's explanation.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:34 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:29 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:26 pm

...Also referred to as "the state of guruyoga".

I refer you to your own post: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4416
That was Phachok Rinpoche calling "Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present". Nevertheless, you should consider that not everyone know the lingo from DC.
Phakchok Rinpoche is clearly explaining resting in equipoise as guru yoga, hence why I linked the post. I don't think it's so much "DC lingo"; guru yoga doesn't suddenly mean something different outside of the DC, as in Phakchok Rinpoche's explanation.
Nevertheless, if you use the white Ah in your heart that is development and letting that go is completion. If you just rest in rigpa we normally call that trechö but ok call it guru yoga if it make you happy. But no doubt people will not get the distinction.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
stoneinfocus
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stoneinfocus »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:39 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:34 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:29 pm

That was Phachok Rinpoche calling "Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present". Nevertheless, you should consider that not everyone know the lingo from DC.
Phakchok Rinpoche is clearly explaining resting in equipoise as guru yoga, hence why I linked the post. I don't think it's so much "DC lingo"; guru yoga doesn't suddenly mean something different outside of the DC, as in Phakchok Rinpoche's explanation.
Nevertheless, if you use the white Ah in your heart that is development and letting that go is completion. If you just rest in rigpa we normally call that trechö but ok call it guru yoga if it make you happy. But no doubt people will not get the distinction.
I have no horse in the White A race, that is best left to Malcolm to hash out imo.

I will continue to use them interchangeably. They are the same in essence at an inner level, and not just by the teachings of the DC.
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:39 pm
Nevertheless, if you use the white Ah in your heart that is development and letting that go is completion.
No, it isn't. You are not transforming anything.
If you just rest in rigpa we normally call that trechö but ok call it guru yoga if it make you happy. But no doubt people will not get the distinction.
There is no distinction.

Your error here is the same error made in all the nine yānas: you see Dzogchen as a result.
the effect is exactly the same with all of them.
Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
CNR told us he studied mainly with two Khenpos in Rumtek. One of them made these infinite distinctions of higher and lower like you do and the other one always explained that point of all path always was the same, I guess I am more like him. CNR thought they where both very good by the way, just so you don't get any ideas about him.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Norwegian
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Norwegian »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
CNR told us he studied mainly with two Khenpos in Rumtek. One of them made these infinite distinctions of higher and lower like you do and the other one always explained that point of all path always was the same, I guess I am more like him. CNR thought they where both very good by the way, just so you don't get any ideas about him.
This is a standard presentation though:

"There are three differences between the generation and completion stages of the inner tantras. Those in which the samadhis are chiefly generated gradually are Maha. Those in which the deities are generated instantaneously in a complete form (rdzogs su), are Anu. Alternatively, those in which the deity/world appears as the magical display of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i cho 'phrul) are Maha. Those in which it appears as the expressive play of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i rtsal) are Anu. Those tantras free of the two stages, generation and completion, are Atiyoga. Alternatively, those tantras that cling excessively to the ten aspects of tantra are Maha; those in which there is somewhat less clinging are Anu; and those that are free of clinging to these ten are Ati."

and:

"With methods numbering in the hundreds and thousands,
Whichever one you practice generates the nonconceptual state.
"

This was said by Rogben (1166-1244), an old-school Nyingma teacher discussing Dzogchen and its practice.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Norwegian wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:16 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
CNR told us he studied mainly with two Khenpos in Rumtek. One of them made these infinite distinctions of higher and lower like you do and the other one always explained that point of all path always was the same, I guess I am more like him. CNR thought they where both very good by the way, just so you don't get any ideas about him.
This is a standard presentation though:

"There are three differences between the generation and completion stages of the inner tantras. Those in which the samadhis are chiefly generated gradually are Maha. Those in which the deities are generated instantaneously in a complete form (rdzogs su), are Anu. Alternatively, those in which the deity/world appears as the magical display of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i cho 'phrul) are Maha. Those in which it appears as the expressive play of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i rtsal) are Anu. Those tantras free of the two stages, generation and completion, are Atiyoga. Alternatively, those tantras that cling excessively to the ten aspects of tantra are Maha; those in which there is somewhat less clinging are Anu; and those that are free of clinging to these ten are Ati."

and:

"With methods numbering in the hundreds and thousands,
Whichever one you practice generates the nonconceptual state.
"

This was said by Rogben (1166-1244), an old-school Nyingma teacher discussing Dzogchen and its practice.
That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

:twothumbsup:
Norwegian wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:16 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
CNR told us he studied mainly with two Khenpos in Rumtek. One of them made these infinite distinctions of higher and lower like you do and the other one always explained that point of all path always was the same, I guess I am more like him. CNR thought they where both very good by the way, just so you don't get any ideas about him.
This is a standard presentation though:

"There are three differences between the generation and completion stages of the inner tantras. Those in which the samadhis are chiefly generated gradually are Maha. Those in which the deities are generated instantaneously in a complete form (rdzogs su), are Anu. Alternatively, those in which the deity/world appears as the magical display of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i cho 'phrul) are Maha. Those in which it appears as the expressive play of self-awareness (rang rig pa'i rtsal) are Anu. Those tantras free of the two stages, generation and completion, are Atiyoga. Alternatively, those tantras that cling excessively to the ten aspects of tantra are Maha; those in which there is somewhat less clinging are Anu; and those that are free of clinging to these ten are Ati."

and:

"With methods numbering in the hundreds and thousands,
Whichever one you practice generates the nonconceptual state.
"

This was said by Rogben (1166-1244), an old-school Nyingma teacher discussing Dzogchen and its practice.
:twothumbsup:
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
Conflating the path of transformation with the path of self-liberation does not help anyone either. AGY belongs to the latter path, not the former path.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:27 pm

That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?
There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:27 pm

That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?
There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.
Never said that.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:42 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:50 pm Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.
Conflating the path of transformation with the path of self-liberation does not help anyone either. AGY belongs to the latter path, not the former path.
Your path is your practice, not your ideas, in fact they are unimportant.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

Guru yoga of the white A is a method of guru yoga, but guru yoga in general is just resting in the “view” of ati.
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:27 pm

That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?
There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.
Never said that.
You said that AGY has creation and completion.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:42 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 pm

There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.
Never said that.
You said that AGY has creation and completion.
We seem to have different ideas what Ati Guru Yoga is. If you first visualise a white Ah in a tigle in your heart, then of course it have development stage. If you then let it go, that is a completion stage.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:42 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:59 pm

Never said that.
You said that AGY has creation and completion.
We seem to have different ideas what Ati Guru Yoga is. If you first visualise a white Ah in a tigle in your heart, then of course it have development stage. If you then let it go, that is a completion stage.
The distinction here is that you are recollecting the thigle of five lights that already abides within all sentient beings as opposed to generating/developing/creating or perfecting anything.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:42 pm

You said that AGY has creation and completion.
We seem to have different ideas what Ati Guru Yoga is. If you first visualise a white Ah in a tigle in your heart, then of course it have development stage. If you then let it go, that is a completion stage.
The distinction here is that you are recollecting the thigle of five lights that already abides within all sentient beings as opposed to generating/developing/creating or perfecting anything.
Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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