Well, many reputed masters did record their experiences on meeting Vimalamitra during their visits to or stays in Wu Tai Shan.
When it comes to macho posturing, you have got it upside down. Nothing is as macho as "Ngondro? Yidam? Are you out of your $&%^& mind? I do not practice lower vehicles tosh, it is for poor morons whom I will always have in my compassionate heart, even as I despise them; all I do is 100% Ati in Ati. Visualisation is for people who never grew up, and ritual for mental asylum inmates." Which actually is what I fairly regularly here form my fellow DC members, sometimes slightly more politely expressed. The absolute heights of such an attitude is saying that one eschews all formal practice, which "is only an obstacle," "obscures the point," "make it more difficult to integrate," etc. And again, alas, I wish I could say it is rare. I suspect the next bus stop must be being convinced one has already gone rainbow.
did those become the part of Vima Nyingthig as it is transmitted today?
Yes, here's the more detailed story:
Dangma Lhundrup Gyaltsen, whose name means 'victory banner of spontaneous presence’, was born in the eleventh century in central Tibet eight years after the great Tingdzin Zangpo had attained rainbow body. He was known by some to be the emanation of Vimalamitra, but to most people he was considered just an ordinary temple attendant: Dorje Leg, a dharma protector with special connection to the Great Perfection lineage, appeared to Lhundrup Gyaltsen and gave him prophecy concerning where and how to reveal the Great Perfection texts Tingdzin Zangpo had concealed. Lhundrup Gyaltsen brought an offering of gold to the keeper of the Zha temple whose construction Tingdzin Zangpo had sponsored. There he revealed the texts and was allowed to remove them from the temple.
After practicing intensely for fifteen years he began to look for someone capable of carrying on the transmission of the lineage. He found Kharak Gomrung, who attained liberation soon after receiving the transmission. He also found Chetzun Senge Wangchug, born into the Che clan, who had been an excellent scholar of the buddhadharma from an early age. Lhundrup Gyaltsen told him to copy the texts well and take them away during the following spring. Having completed his task, Chetzun Senge Wangchug was returning with great gifts for his master when he met Nyang Kadampa at Nyetang, who told him that his master Lhundrup Gyaltsen had passed away. Chetzun Senge Wangchug then offered the gifts to a nearby monastery. Nyang told him that everyone was amazed when Lhundrup Gyaltsen passed away not as an ordinary person, as most had taken him to be, but amid wondrous signs, the sky filled with rainbows. He also manifested many precious relics upon his passing. Chetzun Senge Wangchug bestowed transmission of the teachings on Nyang Kadampa, who after only two years of meditation attained enlightenment, his physical body vanishing into primordial space.
After his master Lhundrup Gyaltsen passed away, Chetzun Senge Wangchug concealed in three places the Great Perfection texts concerning the direct introduction to the nature of mind. The first was at the foot of a spring at Langdro Chepa Takdra, the second in the valley of Uyuk and the third in the upper valley of Cel......
I couldnt agree more and so a lot of people I think. But it is difficult to go against some people who have absolute views.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:04 pmWhen it comes to macho posturing, you have got it upside down. Nothing is as macho as "Ngondro? Yidam? Are you out of your $&%^& mind? I do not practice lower vehicles tosh, it is for poor morons whom I will always have in my compassionate heart, even as I despise them; all I do is 100% Ati in Ati. Visualisation is for people who never grew up, and ritual for mental asylum inmates." Which actually is what I fairly regularly here form my fellow DC members, sometimes slightly more politely expressed. The absolute heights of such an attitude is saying that one eschews all formal practice, which "is only an obstacle," "obscures the point," "make it more difficult to integrate," etc. And again, alas, I wish I could say it is rare. I suspect the next bus stop must be being convinced one has already gone rainbow.
Naturally.merilingpa wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:32 pmI couldnt agree more and so a lot of people I think. But it is difficult to go against some people who have absolute views.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:04 pmWhen it comes to macho posturing, you have got it upside down. Nothing is as macho as "Ngondro? Yidam? Are you out of your $&%^& mind? I do not practice lower vehicles tosh, it is for poor morons whom I will always have in my compassionate heart, even as I despise them; all I do is 100% Ati in Ati. Visualisation is for people who never grew up, and ritual for mental asylum inmates." Which actually is what I fairly regularly here form my fellow DC members, sometimes slightly more politely expressed. The absolute heights of such an attitude is saying that one eschews all formal practice, which "is only an obstacle," "obscures the point," "make it more difficult to integrate," etc. And again, alas, I wish I could say it is rare. I suspect the next bus stop must be being convinced one has already gone rainbow.
In the real world it is important with ngöndro and yidams to get the accumulation of merits and to purify past deeds. And if you only do what your personal, I am not talking about someone on the internet, guru tells you to do then you probably be fine............
Actually my experience is quite the opposite. Try implying that ngondro may not be necessary in tibetan buddhism circles. Good luck with thatmerilingpa wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:32 pmI couldnt agree more and so a lot of people I think. But it is difficult to go against some people who have absolute views.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:04 pmWhen it comes to macho posturing, you have got it upside down. Nothing is as macho as "Ngondro? Yidam? Are you out of your $&%^& mind? I do not practice lower vehicles tosh, it is for poor morons whom I will always have in my compassionate heart, even as I despise them; all I do is 100% Ati in Ati. Visualisation is for people who never grew up, and ritual for mental asylum inmates." Which actually is what I fairly regularly here form my fellow DC members, sometimes slightly more politely expressed. The absolute heights of such an attitude is saying that one eschews all formal practice, which "is only an obstacle," "obscures the point," "make it more difficult to integrate," etc. And again, alas, I wish I could say it is rare. I suspect the next bus stop must be being convinced one has already gone rainbow.
In the real world it is important with ngöndro and yidams to get the accumulation of merits and to purify past deeds. And if you only do what your personal, I am not talking about someone on the internet, guru tells you to do then you probably be fine............
It is equally possible to be horribly misguided by someone in person as it is on the internet. Many people have been.merilingpa wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:32 pm And if you only do what your personal, I am not talking about someone on the internet, guru tells you to do then you probably be fine............
Terma wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:20 am Of course we all know that dharma is not a "one size fits all" kind of thing. Each of us have our own karmic propensities and each of our paths will not be the same.
It has been said before many times, even only a few pages back- that without a teacher, we can't say we practice Dzogchen. Some may argue that they have had this or that transmission, or direct introduction, or pointing out instructions from this or that great master. While that is wonderful, it is still not quite the same as having a bit of ongoing personal advice with a master, with whom we can share our experiences and understanding. Then we will get the guidance we really need and if we have trust and faith we will follow it.
This thread has also reminded me of the "Dzogchen with or without ngondro" threads. Of course, one can absolutely practice Dzogchen without ngondro or any other secondary practices.
But most of the good lamas I have met still really push the importance of ngondro, and not according to numbers but rather signs. Once again, this demonstrates the need for ongoing guidance.
As I mentioned above, sure if we have the good fortune to receive Dzogchen teachings then we must have the connection amd a certain amount of merit, but even then we may only be scratching at the surface and not have the experience or realisation that we think we do. In a recent conversation with an eminent Master, I was not told or ordered to do ngondro per say, but it was very gently suggested or advised to me that the benefits of doing the ngondro will make the practice of Dzogchen so much more authentic and deeper.
But of course they say there are the odd Cig Char wa out there, in which case one's teacher will probably let them know that none of that is necessary.
Either way, personally I am going to take and follow the advice of those who have agreed to give personal advice to me based on my own propensities. If we have trust amd faith in a master, then we know that their aspirations for us are the highest and they are suggesting what is best for us at that time.
Otherwise, the whole conversation is interesting nonetheless.
It has been said before many times, even only a few pages back- that without a teacher, we can't say we practice Dzogchen. Some may argue that they have had this or that transmission, or direct introduction, or pointing out instructions from this or that great master. While that is wonderful, it is still not quite the same as having a bit of ongoing personal advice with a master, with whom we can share our experiences and understanding. Then we will get the guidance we really need and if we have trust and faith we will follow it.
Yeah, this is definitely my experience.
Oh yeah, lots of foaming. Funny how real dzogchenpas say do the extras if you want or don't (and lots of them choose to do some extras), but fake ones turn their backs on Garab Dorje and insist to themselves and others that accumulation of merit and so on are prereqs, basically saying a huge F**k You to Longchenpa et al. So very sad.laowhining wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:25 pmYeah, this is definitely my experience.
Even if I’ve just mentioned that I’m currently practicing ngöndro, just the hint I might think it’s not completely necessary for everyone and they start foaming at the mouth and going on about how important it is that everyone do ngöndro.
You make it sound as though our lamas- many who have the strongest aspirations for us to find an end to suffering, purposely want to delay our realisations in favour of keeping up with good ol' lineage standards.Zoey85 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:43 pmOh yeah, lots of foaming. Funny how real dzogchenpas say do the extras if you want or don't (and lots of them choose to do some extras), but fake ones turn their backs on Garab Dorje and insist to themselves and others that accumulation of merit and so on are prereqs, basically saying a huge F**k You to Longchenpa et al. So very sad.laowhining wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:25 pmYeah, this is definitely my experience.
Even if I’ve just mentioned that I’m currently practicing ngöndro, just the hint I might think it’s not completely necessary for everyone and they start foaming at the mouth and going on about how important it is that everyone do ngöndro.
I am sure that all the lamas have the best of intention. How can it not be? They have their vows to benefit all sentient beings. However, we also need to take responsibility for our own path.Terma wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:30 am You make it sound as though our lamas- many who have the strongest aspirations for us to find an end to suffering, purposely want to delay our realisations in favour of keeping up with good ol' lineage standards.
I doubt it. Rather, they understand and probably can see that many students who jump straight to the good stuff are not getting to the essence, and not having the experiential breakthroughs needed to progress.
But of course, most don't want to hear the words "accumulate merit" or "purify obscurations blocking our realisations." Instead, not having faith and devotion in the lama they take it with a grain of salt and do what they want and not what the lama is advising.
On the other hand, if a truly qualified lama is working with a student and deems them ready to jump right in, then I really don't think they will force them to do practices that they don't need to do.
Just my opinion though. I prefer to follow the advice of the masters I put trust and faith in, and that have agreed to guide me. To each their own though.
Of course I believe that our lama's have the best intentions for us. This is part of their great aspiration for benefiting beings and helping them to become free of suffering. And this is why I wonder why some people think they know better than the lama that they supposedly trust to guide them. For what it's worth, I have several lama's "suggest" that ngondro is a good course of action to take in order to fully prepare ourselves for Dzogchen. But at no time did any of them say explicitly not to engage in Dzogchen practice otherwise. Ultimately it is up to us, but for me anyways, the lama's that I put my trust in have a whole lot of experience and therefore I feel it is wise to heed their advice.Shaiksha wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:17 amI am sure that all the lamas have the best of intention. How can it not be? They have their vows to benefit all sentient beings. However, we also need to take responsibility for our own path.Terma wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:30 am You make it sound as though our lamas- many who have the strongest aspirations for us to find an end to suffering, purposely want to delay our realisations in favour of keeping up with good ol' lineage standards.
I doubt it. Rather, they understand and probably can see that many students who jump straight to the good stuff are not getting to the essence, and not having the experiential breakthroughs needed to progress.
But of course, most don't want to hear the words "accumulate merit" or "purify obscurations blocking our realisations." Instead, not having faith and devotion in the lama they take it with a grain of salt and do what they want and not what the lama is advising.
On the other hand, if a truly qualified lama is working with a student and deems them ready to jump right in, then I really don't think they will force them to do practices that they don't need to do.
Just my opinion though. I prefer to follow the advice of the masters I put trust and faith in, and that have agreed to guide me. To each their own though.
As CNNR often said you needed to go to the essence of the practice. If we do not have a deep understanding of the aim of the practice, then how do we get to the essence. For example, the four thoughts that turns the mind. When one of my first lamas gave the lungs for the ngondro practice to a few of us beginners, he required us to contemplate the four thoughts for at least 15 minutes every day. Soon, I was listening to another lama and he said that if we had time, we should contemplate these but if we did not, that was okay. I was confused but upon reflection it dawned on me - the aim of the practice is to "push us toward dharma and practice". For me, when I wake up every morning, there is nothing I would rather do than going to a 3-year retreat. In fact, the only thing holding me back is I have family responsibilities. So, in a sense, I don't need to just keep on doing this practice once I obtain a degree of familiarity. It is there if I somehow lose my motivation for dharma one day.
Similarly, we do refuge and boddhicitta, it is to renew/set our motivation and intention for practice. Do we really need to mechanically accumulate 100,000 to tick the box? I now believe we do not need to do so. It is great to do this every now and then but I do not believe we have to spend years of our life reciting these alone.
Similarly, for Vajrasattva practice, which I personally enjoy doing, one teacher once said (I forgot who) that we have had countless lives and our past misdeeds are so numerous that countless lives of Vajrasattava practice may not necessarily purify them all! Yet, we do this to support our practice rather than as the final solution.
The essence of Dzogchen teachings is we must go beyond mind - discover the nature of our mind (1st statement of Garab Dorje). Other mind-based practices are there as secondary practices to support our main practice. This really takes a long time to sink for me due to my pre-existing conceptions.
Despite their best intention, lamas can still make mistakes. Unless they are buddhas or have clairvoyance, how do they know exactly what's the best for us? After many years, I come to understand this point: They do their best to help us but they have their own limitations (including their own cultural limitations). It is up to us to ask questions and clarify points.
I have never encountered anything like that. Literally, never ever. Must be down to the differences between local Dharmic cultures. Where I live, the Tibetan scene is dominated by Bon sanghas (Ligmincha and its numerous spin offs), the DC with its environs and Benchen Karma Kagyu. Bon and the DC share the same attitude to ngondro: absolutely not required at best, waste of time at worst (the view held by no teachers but by some instructors and many practitioners). Benchen KK these days encourage doing ngondro, but are very relaxed about it, with the dominant idea being, "Yes, one should ideally complete it, but let us not be in any hurry in this department." The latter attitude, plus the idea that you should do it without counting numbers, or that you should do some bit of it, or that you should spend a few hours every Saturday doing it whenever you can, if you can, or that you should do it if you like it, etc -- these are the smaller sangha approaches I have encountered.laowhining wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:25 pmYeah, this is definitely my experience.
Even if I’ve just mentioned that I’m currently practicing ngöndro, just the hint I might think it’s not completely necessary for everyone and they start foaming at the mouth and going on about how important it is that everyone do ngöndro.
that is surprise to me: i thought Bonpos don't require deity yogas, but are pretty adamant about completing ngondro which is more extensive than other ones, like longchen nyingthig etc.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am ..Bon and the DC share the same attitude to ngondro: absolutely not required at best, waste of time at worst...
no surpsises here as Khandro Thugthig is a mixed maha- anu- ati cycle with compulsory ngondro which is allocated 6 months out of 3 year retreat on KTtreehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am ...(He said ~ "Do more practice, I will transmit it later.")
...We talked of the ultimate unreality of knowledge which he found hugely amusing, roaring with laughter. The whole relationship between mind and universe seemed to become an impossible joke. I began to feel there was no problem and a feeling of relief swept over me, a peculiar sense of freedom in which no anxiety existed. The baffled mind came to a stop in a sort of joyous emptiness, and, in the company of the Rimpoche, the Buddha's smile became this special laughter.
"Do the monks here study Dzogchen?"
"No."
"But how strange since you are a Dzogchen teacher."
"They never ask. They are too busy with their visualisations, their pujas and their cooking to wonder what it all is. Whenever one does so, then I respond."
"You mean their usual activities are pointless?"
"Not at all - a mind may lack insight and need training. Each must go according to the needs set by his own karma. It is entirely appropriate to set traps before the fox is caught. To perceive meditation as a matter of savouring the fruit rather than treading a path requires unusual understanding. That is why Dzogchen means Great Completion."
"Would you say that Dzogchen begins where Chagchen ends?"
"A Chagchen practitioner might indeed say that; Chagchen discloses the Unborn and this realisation is then Dzogchen. But from the Dzogchen viewpoint the Unborn is never absent."
"So the end is in the beginning?"
"Exactly so - don't move!"...
Sure, but where would you put Lama Lena, for example? She taught Dzogchen straight away to beginners and she gave various other practices (including the postponed Vajrakilaya empowerment and teachings) as secondary/support practices.
