The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Zoey85
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

Terma wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:30 am
Zoey85 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:43 pm
laowhining wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:25 pm

Yeah, this is definitely my experience.

Even if I’ve just mentioned that I’m currently practicing ngöndro, just the hint I might think it’s not completely necessary for everyone and they start foaming at the mouth and going on about how important it is that everyone do ngöndro.
Oh yeah, lots of foaming. Funny how real dzogchenpas say do the extras if you want or don't (and lots of them choose to do some extras), but fake ones turn their backs on Garab Dorje and insist to themselves and others that accumulation of merit and so on are prereqs, basically saying a huge F**k You to Longchenpa et al. So very sad.
You make it sound as though our lamas- many who have the strongest aspirations for us to find an end to suffering, purposely want to delay our realisations in favour of keeping up with good ol' lineage standards.
I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. All authentic Lamas have compassion and want us to be liberated as soon as possible. They would never purposely try to delay that. However, due to many factors, including cultural biases and their own limitations in terms of how the path was presented to them, timidity and erring on the side of caution, and not necessarily having an idea exactly which students will be able to enter directly into dzogchen proper, they may accidentally help in delaying our realizations by presenting the path as a step by step thing to all their students and insist on that despite some students being able to go directly to the core. Which is why, as students, we need to look closely and see if these more cautious, traditional approaches are the best for us. But if we've recognized the nature of our minds through it being pointed out and have the strong intuition that abiding in that directly will be the best path for us, then hopefully we have a teacher who will rejoice fully in that and not cause confusion and doubt by continuing to double down on the whole gradual path. If they do, then we can either work with that or bid them adieu with best wishes and find teachers who understand that time is short, the world is falling apart, and so it's the age to not be stingy with the most precious of dzogchen teachings.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

Shaiksha wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:17 am
Despite their best intention, lamas can still make mistakes. Unless they are buddhas or have clairvoyance, how do they know exactly what's the best for us? After many years, I come to understand this point: They do their best to help us but they have their own limitations (including their own cultural limitations). It is up to us to ask questions and clarify points.
This.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
The conclusion is obvious: sadhana-free dzogchen is essentially a didactic ideal.
You are confusing Dzogchen practice with Dzogchen practitioners. Dzogchen practice does not entail sadhana practice, though many practitioners practice anuyoga sadhanas, etc., and even maintain monastic vows, because we don’t use Dzogchen as a limitation.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:59 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
The conclusion is obvious: sadhana-free dzogchen is essentially a didactic ideal.
You are confusing Dzogchen practice with Dzogchen practitioners. Dzogchen practice does not entail sadhana practice, though many practitioners practice anuyoga sadhanas, etc., and even maintain monastic vows, because we don’t use Dzogchen as a limitation.
And there was me thinking that dzogchen practice was the practice practiced by dzogchen practitioners. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleye:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:59 pm
yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
From a historical prospective, Vilāsavajra wrote in his work, Spar Khabs commentary to the Guhyagarbha Tantra, did mention Atiyoga (one of the earliest written references on Dzogchen) being separate from Mahayoga but he never make the former into the independent vehicle and insisted that the former is still dependent on the latter and emerges from it. Guru Rinpoche wrote Garland of views about seven Vehicles in which Atiyoga is seen as a separate (and probably independent from the rest) technique of the seventh vehicle.

Its not until Nupchen Sangye Yeshe in his famous anuyoga commentary, Armor Against Darkness, that the arguments for Atiyoga as an independent vehicle totally divorce from Mahayoga and the nine vehicle doxography really appeared as a formal debate.

Hence the movement to make Dzogchen an independent vehicle started even before the 17 tantras were formally written down. And as you can see, that debate continues till today.
And don’t forget Shri Simha being quoted by Manjushrikirti as being part of a group that dismissed the creation stage as being unnecessary, or for the timid, since the necessity of that is really what we are discussing.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:59 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
The conclusion is obvious: sadhana-free dzogchen is essentially a didactic ideal.
You are confusing Dzogchen practice with Dzogchen practitioners. Dzogchen practice does not entail sadhana practice, though many practitioners practice anuyoga sadhanas, etc., and even maintain monastic vows, because we don’t use Dzogchen as a limitation.
And there was me thinking that dzogchen practice was the practice practiced by dzogchen practitioners. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleye:
The point being that Dzogchen practice does not involve the two stages. Dzogchen practitioners might have various reasons to resort to practices from the lower vehicles, for example, keeping the fifth precept if they have a problem with alcohol.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

yagmort wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:18 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am ..Bon and the DC share the same attitude to ngondro: absolutely not required at best, waste of time at worst...
that is surprise to me: i thought Bonpos don't require deity yogas, but are pretty adamant about completing ngondro which is more extensive than other ones, like longchen nyingthig etc.
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am ...(He said ~ "Do more practice, I will transmit it later.")
no surpsises here as Khandro Thugthig is a mixed maha- anu- ati cycle with compulsory ngondro which is allocated 6 months out of 3 year retreat on KT
Bonpo teachers very, very rarely teach on ngondro here (it was different 20 years ago). Lung is given whenever requested, but they seldom volunteer. I have never met a Bonpo lama who would explicitly ask us to do ngondro (this includes HE Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche), and I have met a few.

As far as the Cow goes, no surprises either, although I have been taught KTT and the Cow without any prerequisites, and I have been told to practice the main sadhana without any ngondro questions/suggestions. It was taught as an addition to Dzogchen practice, not a prerequisite for it, too. Every valley etc.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

My Bön teacher also does not require Ngondro, he has said that how/if Ngondro is required is an individual thing, at least in the context of the Atri we are learning. The preliminaries are taught as being vital, but not with any required recipe.

In my limited experience if anything Yungdrung Bön tends to be far -less- restrictive about who can learn Dzogchen. Of course my experience is an infinitesimally small sliver, but with the teachers and groups I have known it’s been pretty consistent, the other stuff is prep for Dzogchen.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by jet.urgyen »

Lingpupa wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:59 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
The conclusion is obvious: sadhana-free dzogchen is essentially a didactic ideal.
You are confusing Dzogchen practice with Dzogchen practitioners. Dzogchen practice does not entail sadhana practice, though many practitioners practice anuyoga sadhanas, etc., and even maintain monastic vows, because we don’t use Dzogchen as a limitation.
And there was me thinking that dzogchen practice was the practice practiced by dzogchen practitioners. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleye:
it is so, other methods can be applied based on the realized view.

so it is not an ideal really, it is just how things develop this times:

we also are very lucky to have vajrayana nowadays and, even if it is not strictly necessary, it is completely desirable to involve in it.
true dharma is inexpressible.

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by laowhining »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am Must be down to the differences between local Dharmic cultures.
As well as particular Sangha cultures and what they emphasize. For example, I’ve seen those in Dilgo Khyentse’s lineage, e.g. Shechen Rabjam and Gochen Tulku Sangngag, put heavy emphasis on the importance of ngondro and their students, of course, adopt that same perspective.

To be clear, I’m not saying those teachers’ teachings on the importance of ngondro constitute “foaming at the mouth,” I’ve received important transmissions from both of them and consider my connection with them to be very precious. However, some of their Western students with whom I’ve broached the topic got a little intense.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

laowhining wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:45 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 am Must be down to the differences between local Dharmic cultures.
As well as particular Sangha cultures and what they emphasize. For example, I’ve seen those in Dilgo Khyentse’s lineage, e.g. Shechen Rabjam and Gochen Tulku Sangngag, put heavy emphasis on the importance of ngondro and their students, of course, adopt that same perspective.

To be clear, I’m not saying those teachers’ teachings on the importance of ngondro constitute “foaming at the mouth,” I’ve received important transmissions from both of them and consider my connection with them to be very precious. However, some of their Western students with whom I’ve broached the topic got a little intense.
Yes, this is what my "Dharmic cultures" were supposed to cover as well. I have yet to make a connection with Dilgo Khyentse's heirs but, as far as the Nyingma masters I have received teachings from go, the only one who insisted that we do ngondro, and everything else, and do it properly, was Dudjom Sangye Pema Shepa Rinpoche (he spoke of it during probably the most inspiring, and certainly the most unexpected, Dharma talk I have ever heard). None of my ngakpa lamas have ever gone anywhere near it, not even LOTR, who is certainly the most traditional of them (but who still does not require that his students do a ngondro before practicing sadhanas, and who he encourages people to do ngondro very slowly, over ten years). The ngakpa sanghas are generally fairly relaxed here, with only a handful of people trying to really complete the ngondro accumulations.

I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by laowhining »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm Yes, this is what my "Dharmic cultures" were supposed to cover as well.
My bad. I was maybe focusing too much on the local part of “local Dharmic cultures.”
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Shaiksha »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
Completing ngondro for us living in the modern world must be such a rare feat that you earn the right to boast about it. What we should ask is what are the signs of progress in your practice? Rather than just the numbers...

If you have a job and family, that would practically be the only practice that you would do for a number of years. As an illustration, to accumulate the usual 500,000, you need to spend an average of 2-3 hours of daily practice for 2-3 years to complete. A website promoting their ngondro program, recommend 1 hour per day on weekdays and 3 hours per day on weekends, or a longer retreat monthly or yearly where one should be able to finish within 3 years. It further recommends 15 minutes of study and contemplation a day. In other words, it's 1 hour 45 minutes per week - this is nowhere near what I have been doing on study and contemplation at the moment!

We have so many things going on in the modern dharma scene that you will need an incredible discipline to stick to the programme. What happened if there was a lung transmission for the 17 tantras or Longchenpa's 7 treasuries or other works, Rongzom's works, etc. Do you have the courage to say no? What happened if you heard a famous lama (a "Guru Rinpoche in flesh") coming near you doing a retreat and presenting a life-time opportunity to connect that would never come around again. Can you say 'no'? You name it, the list is long. And of course, we also have what I would call "dharma distractions" in this modern world: The Dharma Wheel forum! :rolling:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
Completing ngondro for us living in the modern world must be such a rare feat that you earn the right to boast about it. What we should ask is what are the signs of progress in your practice? Rather than just the numbers...

If you have a job and family, that would practically be the only practice that you would do for a number of years. As an illustration, to accumulate the usual 500,000, you need to spend an average of 2-3 hours of daily practice for 2-3 years to complete. A website promoting their ngondro program, recommend 1 hour per day on weekdays and 3 hours per day on weekends, or a longer retreat monthly or yearly where one should be able to finish within 3 years. It further recommends 15 minutes of study and contemplation a day. In other words, it's 1 hour 45 minutes per week - this is nowhere near what I have been doing on study and contemplation at the moment!

We have so many things going on in the modern dharma scene that you will need an incredible discipline to stick to the programme. What happened if there was a lung transmission for the 17 tantras or Longchenpa's 7 treasuries or other works, Rongzom's works, etc. Do you have the courage to say no? What happened if you heard a famous lama (a "Guru Rinpoche in flesh") coming near you doing a retreat and presenting a life-time opportunity to connect that would never come around again. Can you say 'no'? You name it, the list is long. And of course, we also have what I would call "dharma distractions" in this modern world: The Dharma Wheel forum! :rolling:
For sure! Great points.

It has always been a little bit of a stumbling block for me ever since I became a family man...lol. I think the numbers are general guidelines but the best way is to do ngondro according to signs, since this is the real purpose for it.

For those that can't devote all their time to ngondro, perhaps doing some to compliment their practice would be useful as well. Time is a luxury for many of us these days!

It has not stopped me from receiving teachings, nor should it. My lama does encourage this rather than discouraging it, but also feels ngondro is very, very helpful for one to get to the core of Dzogchen practice.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
Completing ngondro for us living in the modern world must be such a rare feat
It’s not rare. I’m sure there are many people on their forum who have done multiple ngondros.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
Completing ngondro for us living in the modern world must be such a rare feat that you earn the right to boast about it. What we should ask is what are the signs of progress in your practice? Rather than just the numbers...

If you have a job and family, that would practically be the only practice that you would do for a number of years. As an illustration, to accumulate the usual 500,000, you need to spend an average of 2-3 hours of daily practice for 2-3 years to complete. A website promoting their ngondro program, recommend 1 hour per day on weekdays and 3 hours per day on weekends, or a longer retreat monthly or yearly where one should be able to finish within 3 years. It further recommends 15 minutes of study and contemplation a day. In other words, it's 1 hour 45 minutes per week - this is nowhere near what I have been doing on study and contemplation at the moment!

We have so many things going on in the modern dharma scene that you will need an incredible discipline to stick to the programme. What happened if there was a lung transmission for the 17 tantras or Longchenpa's 7 treasuries or other works, Rongzom's works, etc. Do you have the courage to say no? What happened if you heard a famous lama (a "Guru Rinpoche in flesh") coming near you doing a retreat and presenting a life-time opportunity to connect that would never come around again. Can you say 'no'? You name it, the list is long. And of course, we also have what I would call "dharma distractions" in this modern world: The Dharma Wheel forum! :rolling:
I have done 2 full ngondros during my years of practice while working full time. It isn't more difficult than doing any other practice you just have to be properly motivated and have some discipline. While I was doing ngondro I also did other practices, like Dzogchen, yidams and so on. Ngondro is not a punishment nor is it keeping you from the main practice and once you understood that it is quite easy and rewarding.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm I have met three or four persons who would boast of having completed ngondro (one of them boasted of it though he had not completed it), but that was to gain extra status points, and not fulfill anything like the near-entrance requirement. Comparable to "I have met X or Y/spent a lot of time attending X's or Y's teachings/been to Indianepalbhutan X times" moves in the social game.
Completing ngondro for us living in the modern world must be such a rare feat that you earn the right to boast about it. What we should ask is what are the signs of progress in your practice? Rather than just the numbers...

If you have a job and family, that would practically be the only practice that you would do for a number of years. As an illustration, to accumulate the usual 500,000, you need to spend an average of 2-3 hours of daily practice for 2-3 years to complete. A website promoting their ngondro program, recommend 1 hour per day on weekdays and 3 hours per day on weekends, or a longer retreat monthly or yearly where one should be able to finish within 3 years. It further recommends 15 minutes of study and contemplation a day. In other words, it's 1 hour 45 minutes per week - this is nowhere near what I have been doing on study and contemplation at the moment!

We have so many things going on in the modern dharma scene that you will need an incredible discipline to stick to the programme. What happened if there was a lung transmission for the 17 tantras or Longchenpa's 7 treasuries or other works, Rongzom's works, etc. Do you have the courage to say no? What happened if you heard a famous lama (a "Guru Rinpoche in flesh") coming near you doing a retreat and presenting a life-time opportunity to connect that would never come around again. Can you say 'no'? You name it, the list is long.
Which is why there is less and less stress on time, or even the absolute necessity of it, of course. PS. Boasting about having completed ngondro is a sure sign of accomplishment in its own right, I am afraid...
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:31 am
It’s not rare. I’m sure there are many people on their forum who have done multiple ngondros.
It is rare, and very demanding for most of us now, which of course does not mean that no one does it (just as completing a three year retreat is terribly rare and yet I am friends with a handful of people who have been through it). Kids are ngondro-killers (and generally tend to drastically limit one's formal practice in general). So can be ageing or ill parents, serious health issues, serious job-related challenges (and who is free of them these days?).

Being able to devote 2 hours to formal practice a day, every day, is a wonderful, and incredibly rare opportunity these days.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

in drukpa and drikung they do 3 cycles of ngondro usually, westerners included. i knew one western guy who completed 3 cycles as part of drikung 3 y retreat in Lachi. i also once asked some drukpa monks at one place and all of them did 3 cycles of ngondro (short prostrations though) and 3 y retreat. no one was boasting about it.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:37 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:31 am
It’s not rare. I’m sure there are many people on their forum who have done multiple ngondros.
It is rare, and very demanding for most of us now, which of course does not mean that no one does it (just as completing a three year retreat is terribly rare and yet I am friends with a handful of people who have been through it). Kids are ngondro-killers (and generally tend to drastically limit one's formal practice in general). So can be ageing or ill parents, serious health issues, serious job-related challenges (and who is free of them these days?).

Being able to devote 2 hours to formal practice a day, every day, is a wonderful, and incredibly rare opportunity these days.
Ok, obviously we can only speak from our own experience, but every vajrayana practitioner I am friends with has done at least one, most have done two or more. I did three though the last one was abbreviated.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:34 am Ngondro is not a punishment nor is it keeping you from the main practice and once you understood that it is quite easy and rewarding.
Yes Magnus!

:good:

It has taken me some years and a few attempts to realise this.
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