The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

[Kai lord]

Malcolm, the path of transformation only adds more capabilities to the ati yogin.

Given that transformative night times practices like dream yoga and luminosity greatly aid practitioners to extend their abiding in the natural state well beyond the waking hours, those practices are worth spending some effort & time on.

[Norwegian]

Malcolm, the path of transformation only adds more capabilities to the ati yogin.

Given that transformative night times practices like dream yoga and luminosity greatly aid practitioners to extend their abiding in the natural state well beyond the waking hours, those practices are worth spending some effort & time on.

Dzogchen has its own practices for the night, which don't have anything to do with the path of transformation.

[Sādhaka]

And eventually a Dzogchen practitioner has to put sadhanas and recitations down completely.

Honestly I have difficulty picturing (for example) any Dudjom Throma practitioner putting their sadhanas and stop doing their chod even when they are engaging in Ati yoga practices.

If you read a Dzogchen manual such as Yeshe Lama or Heart Essence/Drops of Kuntuzangpo/Dharmakaya, it/they indicates what Malcolm said there.

[Lingpupa]

IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

[Malcolm]

IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Your estimate is a bit off.

[merilingpa]

I agree in principle what Malcolm is saying but in practical terms there is very few who practice without first gathering the accumulations and doing purifications through ngöndro, yidam and different sadhanas. All the great lamas and Rinpoches have that approach. Longchen Nyingthig ngöndro is very highly praised and most people wont be doing Yeshe Lama without first doing that.

[Kai lord]

And eventually a Dzogchen practitioner has to put sadhanas and recitations down completely.

Honestly I have difficulty picturing (for example) any Dudjom Throma practitioner putting their sadhanas and stop doing their chod even when they are engaging in Ati yoga practices.

If you read a Dzogchen manual such as Yeshe Lama or Heart Essence/Drops of Kuntuzangpo/Dharmakaya, it/they indicates what Malcolm said there.

That is in theory, I was pointing out the practicality.

Malcolm, the path of transformation only adds more capabilities to the ati yogin.

Given that transformative night times practices like dream yoga and luminosity greatly aid practitioners to extend their abiding in the natural state well beyond the waking hours, those practices are worth spending some effort & time on.

Dzogchen has its own practices for the night, which don't have anything to do with the path of transformation.

Yes and those night times yogas are in nowhere less "complicated" than those anuyoga practices. Both still require considerable amount of effort.

[Malcolm]

Honestly I have difficulty picturing (for example) any Dudjom Throma practitioner putting their sadhanas and stop doing their chod even when they are engaging in Ati yoga practices.

If you read a Dzogchen manual such as Yeshe Lama or Heart Essence/Drops of Kuntuzangpo/Dharmakaya, it/they indicates what Malcolm said there.

That is in theory, I was pointing out the practicality.

Given that transformative night times practices like dream yoga and luminosity greatly aid practitioners to extend their abiding in the natural state well beyond the waking hours, those practices are worth spending some effort & time on.

Dzogchen has its own practices for the night, which don't have anything to do with the path of transformation.

Yes and those night times yogas are in nowhere less "complicated" than those anuyoga practices. Both still require considerable amount of effort.

We don’t use those in the DC. That’s where the disconnect you are experiencing is coming from. Our practice of the night is extremely simple, does not involve recognizing the dream, then transforming the dream, etc.

[Sādhaka]

That is in theory, I was pointing out the practicality.

Well yea, the mentioned Dzogchen manuals are pretty much referring to ones who are in isolated retreat, and who are also getting closer to the Fruition/Result in a practical sense.

Again though, we can’t judge who is a rim gyi pa, thod rgal pa, or cig car ba; as—aside from maybe in the case of a high level clairvoyant—only the individual themselves can know that.

[Zoey85]

IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Crude fetishization of "direct introduction"? What do you mean by this? We need DI before we can practice dzogchen, so it's crucial.

As far as living dzogchen practitioners who "do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana" I'm guessing you won't find too many who 'have not' ever practiced sadhanas etc but probably quite a few who 'do not' anymore or do not for a time. It's a thing. It's in the literature.

[Malcolm]

IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Crude fetishization of "direct introduction"? What do you mean by this? We need DI before we can practice dzogchen, so it's crucial.

As far as living dzogchen practitioners who "do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana" I'm guessing you won't find too many who 'have not' ever practiced sadhanas etc but probably quite a few who 'do not' anymore or do not for a time. It's a thing. It's in the literature.

There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?

[Zoey85]

IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Crude fetishization of "direct introduction"? What do you mean by this? We need DI before we can practice dzogchen, so it's crucial.

As far as living dzogchen practitioners who "do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana" I'm guessing you won't find too many who 'have not' ever practiced sadhanas etc but probably quite a few who 'do not' anymore or do not for a time. It's a thing. It's in the literature.

There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?

[natusake]

I agree in principle what Malcolm is saying but in practical terms there is very few who practice without first gathering the accumulations and doing purifications through ngöndro, yidam and different sadhanas. All the great lamas and Rinpoches have that approach. Longchen Nyingthig ngöndro is very highly praised and most people wont be doing Yeshe Lama without first doing that.

I have not done so at all. I did a little bit of vipassana-style meditation for about a year before encountering Dzogchen teachings and that's it. I'll let you know in a few years if I'm a failed practitioner or not.

[krodha]

I agree in principle what Malcolm is saying but in practical terms there is very few who practice without first gathering the accumulations and doing purifications through ngöndro, yidam and different sadhanas. All the great lamas and Rinpoches have that approach. Longchen Nyingthig ngöndro is very highly praised and most people wont be doing Yeshe Lama without first doing that.

I have not done so at all. I did a little bit of vipassana-style meditation for about a year before encountering Dzogchen teachings and that's it. I'll let you know in a few years if I'm a failed practitioner or not.

Vipassana style meditation and the real meaning of vipaśyanā are two different things. The former is just a glorified style of śamatha meditation, the latter is actually the awakened state we aim to actualize even in atiyoga.

That being the case, this thread is really about the role of śamatha in Dzogchen, because vipaśyanā is awakened equipoise.

[Lingpupa]

Your estimate is a bit off.

Quite possible. But so may yours be. That's why I hoped that someone might

offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana

But nobody has done so yet. Bold assertions are cheap, as you well know but scarcely worth the pixels that display them.

[Lingpupa]

As far as living dzogchen practitioners who "do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana" I'm guessing you won't find too many who 'have not' ever practiced sadhanas etc but probably quite a few who 'do not' anymore or do not for a time. It's a thing. It's in the literature.

Literature, schmiterature. I was hoping someone might

offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana

. I remain in hope.

Crude fetishization of "direct introduction"? What do you mean by this? We need DI before we can practice dzogchen, so it's crucial.

Note that I did not comment on the importance of "DI" or its equivalent, and I'm well aware of it's important, central position, especially in the normative conception of someone who has studied and practiced up to a significant point, and who is given DI as an introduction to specific atiyoga or dzogchen practice.

By fetishization I was referring to some peoples' attitudes to it. There are those, for example, who suggest that it is impossible to understand dzogchen without having undergone DI, as if the true nature of the mind were not discoverable outside of its magic circle. (A view which is denigratory in the extreme to the great practitioners and teachers of other traditions.) Yet it is said, that, magically, having watched a VHS tape of Norbu Rinpoche giving DI makes it possible to comprehend them provided, intriguingly, NR was watching another tape somewhere else in the world at the same time. All without mind-to-mind interaction, what is more!!!

It is easy to see that dzogchen teachings would be unhelpful or even impenetrable to someone without the insight that DI is intended to convey. But DI is, even so, not the be-all and end-all of transmission.

[Lingpupa]

There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?

If that is your system, then it's obviously good that you have confidence in it. But isn't there a special subforum for NR's followers now? But more nuanced understandings are also possible.

(PS. These are not "my" 10 million mantras, just the number recommended in Longchen Nyingthig Ati Yoga instructions from Dilgo Khyentse.)

[heart]

I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan", he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

[stoneinfocus]

I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan", he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

Yes, though your statement regarding unstable rigpa implied that one needs path of transformation practices, when stabilizing rigpa does not.

The option is there, of course, nobody is denying that.

[heart]

I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan", he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

Yes, though your statement regarding unstable rigpa implied that one needs path of transformation practices, when stabilizing rigpa does not.

The option is there, of course, nobody is denying that.

No, I said that if your rigpa is stable it is possible you don't need development and perfection stages anymore. Nevertheless I don't know a single Tibetan master that stopped doing development and perfection stages, including ChNNR.