The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Zoey85
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:28 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:41 pm why are we asking -- is it just mere curiosity, or is there a practical, practice-related reason
Let's hope so. Otherwise, why are we even talking about it?...
Well, when we talk about what Vimalamitra practiced, I guess we are not seeking to solve a personal practice-related issue.
We aren't? As Malcolm mentioned above, Vimalamitra mainly spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho and thogal. How is that not relevant to our personal practice?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:28 pm

Let's hope so. Otherwise, why are we even talking about it?...
Well, when we talk about what Vimalamitra practiced, I guess we are not seeking to solve a personal practice-related issue.
We aren't? As Malcolm mentioned above, Vimalamitra mainly spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho and thogal. How is that not relevant to our personal practice?
Not sure about you, but I do not think that the details of how the legendary founding fathers approached their practice curricula and what the latter consisted in is half as helpful as talking to my teachers about how I should practice, in my circumstances.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:49 pm

Well, when we talk about what Vimalamitra practiced, I guess we are not seeking to solve a personal practice-related issue.
We aren't? As Malcolm mentioned above, Vimalamitra mainly spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho and thogal. How is that not relevant to our personal practice?
Not sure about you, but I do not think that the details of how the legendary founding fathers approached their practice curricula and what the latter consisted in is half as helpful as talking to my teachers about how I should practice, in my circumstances.
Of course, but that's not really the point of this thread, since it should really go without saying that we talk to our teachers about our practice.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:29 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:16 pm

We aren't? As Malcolm mentioned above, Vimalamitra mainly spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho and thogal. How is that not relevant to our personal practice?
Not sure about you, but I do not think that the details of how the legendary founding fathers approached their practice curricula and what the latter consisted in is half as helpful as talking to my teachers about how I should practice, in my circumstances.
Of course, but that's not really the point of this thread.
To be perfectly honest, I do not really get the point of such threads.

One finds a teacher one can really trust. Once one has found them, one does what they instruct one to do. If this is difficult or impossible, one talks to them about it. If one has not found a teacher, one does not practice Dzogchen, so there are no practice-related issues to resolve. If one has found a proper reliable teacher, one resolves issues with them, instead of wondering what is the True Dzogchen Path TM or what Garab Dorje practiced.

I am perfectly OK with all sorts of idle talk, only that peculiar brand of idle chatting (is Dzogchen a truly standalone path or not, etc) seems to me a peculiarly curious one, unnecessary for sure, distraction as all of them, but also potentially a source of confusion regarding how one should practice. Which is what one discusses with one's teacher, again.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

yagmort wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:56 am even if there are zero deity yogas in Vima Nyingthig, how do we know today it was not intended as strictly dzogchen proper text? -meaning whoever it was who composed Vima Nyinthig wasn't bothered to cover topics which were extensively discussed elsewhere and focused on dzogchen specificly?

are there any specific lines in Vima Nyingthig against Maha- and Anu- practices?

and if yes, then how do we reconsile these with the fact the Vimalamitra himself was Guhyagarbha and Vajrakila lineage holder?

if Vimalamitra did practice both Guhyagarbha and Vajrakilaya the whole notion of masters practicing dzogchen only looks questionable to me.
From a historical prospective, Vilāsavajra wrote in his work, Spar Khabs commentary to the Guhyagarbha Tantra, did mention Atiyoga (one of the earliest written references on Dzogchen) being separate from Mahayoga but he never make the former into the independent vehicle and insisted that the former is still dependent on the latter and emerges from it. Guru Rinpoche wrote Garland of views about seven Vehicles in which Atiyoga is seen as a separate (and probably independent from the rest) technique of the seventh vehicle.

Its not until Nupchen Sangye Yeshe in his famous anuyoga commentary, Armor Against Darkness, that the arguments for Atiyoga as an independent vehicle totally divorce from Mahayoga and the nine vehicle doxography really appeared as a formal debate.

Hence the movement to make Dzogchen an independent vehicle started even before the 17 tantras were formally written down. And as you can see, that debate continues till today.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:29 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm

Not sure about you, but I do not think that the details of how the legendary founding fathers approached their practice curricula and what the latter consisted in is half as helpful as talking to my teachers about how I should practice, in my circumstances.
Of course, but that's not really the point of this thread.
To be perfectly honest, I do not really get the point of such threads.

One finds a teacher one can really trust. Once one has found them, one does what they instruct one to do. If this is difficult or impossible, one talks to them about it. If one has not found a teacher, one does not practice Dzogchen, so there are no practice-related issues to resolve. If one has found a proper reliable teacher, one resolves issues with them, instead of wondering what is the True Dzogchen Path TM or what Garab Dorje practiced.

I am perfectly OK with all sorts of idle talk, only that peculiar brand of idle chatting (is Dzogchen a truly standalone path or not, etc) seems to me a peculiarly curious one, unnecessary for sure, distraction as all of them, but also potentially a source of confusion regarding how one should practice. Which is what one duscusses with one's teacher, again.
Please see my edited response above. We shouldn't need to clarify again and again with each other the need to talk to our teachers about our practice. We all know that, and if for some reason we don't then we're pretty much screwed.

I personally find the discussion interesting and important. For example, during a three year retreat I was in we were told by the Drubpon to go "step by step". Some of us already had received DI from our Lamas but were occasionally thinking that maybe we needed to set that aside to engage conceptual generation stage. This is just one example of how the issues we have been discussing here are very relevant to our times.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:29 pm

Of course, but that's not really the point of this thread.
To be perfectly honest, I do not really get the point of such threads.

One finds a teacher one can really trust. Once one has found them, one does what they instruct one to do. If this is difficult or impossible, one talks to them about it. If one has not found a teacher, one does not practice Dzogchen, so there are no practice-related issues to resolve. If one has found a proper reliable teacher, one resolves issues with them, instead of wondering what is the True Dzogchen Path TM or what Garab Dorje practiced.

I am perfectly OK with all sorts of idle talk, only that peculiar brand of idle chatting (is Dzogchen a truly standalone path or not, etc) seems to me a peculiarly curious one, unnecessary for sure, distraction as all of them, but also potentially a source of confusion regarding how one should practice. Which is what one duscusses with one's teacher, again.
Please see my edited response above. We shouldn't need to clarify again and again with each other the need to talk to our teachers about our practice. We all know that, and if for some reason we don't then we're pretty much screwed.

I personally find the discussion interesting and important. For example, during a three year retreat I was in we were told by the Drubpon to go "step by step". Some of us already had received DI from our Lamas but were occasionally thinking that maybe we needed to set that aside to engage conceptual generation stage. This is just one example of how the issues we have been discussing here are very relevant to our times.
Valid points, thank you.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:20 pm
Zoey85 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pm

To be perfectly honest, I do not really get the point of such threads.

One finds a teacher one can really trust. Once one has found them, one does what they instruct one to do. If this is difficult or impossible, one talks to them about it. If one has not found a teacher, one does not practice Dzogchen, so there are no practice-related issues to resolve. If one has found a proper reliable teacher, one resolves issues with them, instead of wondering what is the True Dzogchen Path TM or what Garab Dorje practiced.

I am perfectly OK with all sorts of idle talk, only that peculiar brand of idle chatting (is Dzogchen a truly standalone path or not, etc) seems to me a peculiarly curious one, unnecessary for sure, distraction as all of them, but also potentially a source of confusion regarding how one should practice. Which is what one duscusses with one's teacher, again.
Please see my edited response above. We shouldn't need to clarify again and again with each other the need to talk to our teachers about our practice. We all know that, and if for some reason we don't then we're pretty much screwed.

I personally find the discussion interesting and important. For example, during a three year retreat I was in we were told by the Drubpon to go "step by step". Some of us already had received DI from our Lamas but were occasionally thinking that maybe we needed to set that aside to engage conceptual generation stage. This is just one example of how the issues we have been discussing here are very relevant to our times.
Valid points, thank you.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Jules 09 »

:namaste:

Back to topic, :smile: :
Each vehicle, beginning with the shravaka yana, has its own particular view, meditation and conduct. Each has the same aim, to understand emptiness; and each employs practices called shamatha and vipashyana.

On the Mahayana level, the ultimate shamatha and vipashyana is called the ‘shamatha and vipashyana that delights the tathagatas’. Though the same names are used, their depth is much superior to the shamatha and vipashyana employed in the shravaka system.

Every vehicle, beginning with the shravaka yana, practices shamatha and vipashyana, so don’t think that at the level of Dzogchen these two are ignored or left out. On the contrary, on the Ati level, the innate stability in rigpa, the nondual state of awareness, is the shamatha aspect, while the awake or cognizant quality is the vipashyana aspect.
Our basic nature, also called awareness wisdom or cognizant wakefulness, is resolved or recognized through shamatha and vipashyana. To cite a famous statement, “Awakened mind is the unity of shamatha and vipashyana.”

The principle we must understand here is stated like this: “Same word, superior meaning.”
Shamatha and vipashyana are ultimately indivisible. Both are naturally included and practiced in Ati Yoga.
The extraordinary shamatha here is to resolve and rest in the true emptiness itself. We do not merely get the idea of emptiness; in actuality, in direct experience, we resolve emptiness and rest naturally in that state.
Naturally resting is the genuine shamatha of not creating anything artificial whatsoever, of simply remaining in the experience of emptiness. And vipashyana means not to deviate or depart from that state.

According to ordinary shamatha and vipashyana, shamatha is first cultivated and then vipashyana is pursued. Cultivating shamatha means to produce a state of mental stillness, and then to train in it. Pursuing or seeking the insight of vipashyana means to try to find who the meditator is; trying to identify what it is that remains quiet.
It’s evident that both of these practices are pretty much involved in conceptual thinking.


Only in the Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen systems is emptiness left without fabrication. In Dzogchen, from the very first, emptiness is resolved without any need to manufacture it. It emphasizes stripping awareness to its naked state, and not clinging to emptiness in any way whatsoever. The true and authentic vipashyana is the empty and cognizant nature of mind.

The special quality of Dzogchen is the view that is totally free from any ideas whatsoever. This view is called the view of fruition, meaning it is utterly devoid of any conceptual formulations.

Dzogchen is like the highest point of a monastery, the golden top-ornament: above it, there is nothing but sky.
The innermost Unexcelled Section of Dzogchen is like the temple’s golden top-ornament in that it’s the highest point of all the nine vehicles.

Tulku Urgyen, Rainbow Painting (pp.34-35.)
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Last edited by Jules 09 on Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Kai lord wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:59 pm ...
Its not until Nupchen Sangye Yeshe in his famous anuyoga commentary, Armor Against Darkness, that the arguments for Atiyoga as an independent vehicle totally divorce from Mahayoga and the nine vehicle doxography really appeared as a formal debate.

Hence the movement to make Dzogchen an independent vehicle started even before the 17 tantras were formally written down. And as you can see, that debate continues till today.
what are the earliest sources where practices of rushens tregchö and thögel are described?
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by MiphamFan »

Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
This is the post which started the thread on the whole topic of "Dzogchen without sadhana".

I think ultimately this is a strawman, Malcolm doesn't really want to engage in this argument for example because he actually never proposed the idea of "Dzogchen without sadhana", he just said that Dzogchen, Atiyoga is a unique path of its own with its understanding of base, path, fruit. This is what Chogyal Namkhai Norbu taught.

All this means is that, in theory, if you meet a teacher like ChNN you can start with semdzins without doing sadhanas, which anyway, also bring about the union of shamatha and vipasyana rapidly. In practice, ChNN taught the methods of transformation extensively, keeping the ultimate view of Atiyoga in mind, he just reminded everyone that the methods are secondary.

So no one is actually even proposing doing "Dzogchen without sadhana", such an idea, that you have to deliberately exclude sadhana practice is kinda absurd.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

MiphamFan wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:07 am
Lingpupa wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm Not to flog a dead horse, but whereas it's obvious that an approach to the essential practices of dzogchen might typically start by establishing the view, and doing THAT through shamatha, vipassana and their unification, there really do seem to be a few people who assert the possibility of jumping directly into trekcho and thogal without preliminary sadhana and the like. But having given enough time for someone to provide
references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana,
there has been nothing but an assertion that my estimate (i.e. that sadhana-free dzogchen doesn't get a lot of credence outside certain corners of the internet) is a mis-estimate, and a claim that they somehow must be there somewhere.

What's now more than clear, even if some are found at this stage, that such practioners are rare as garudas' teeth. My curiosity is satisfied.
This is the post which started the thread on the whole topic of "Dzogchen without sadhana".

I think ultimately this is a strawman, Malcolm doesn't really want to engage in this argument for example because he actually never proposed the idea of "Dzogchen without sadhana", he just said that Dzogchen, Atiyoga is a unique path of its own with its understanding of base, path, fruit. This is what Chogyal Namkhai Norbu taught.

All this means is that, in theory, if you meet a teacher like ChNN you can start with semdzins without doing sadhanas, which anyway, also bring about the union of shamatha and vipasyana rapidly. In practice, ChNN taught the methods of transformation extensively, keeping the ultimate view of Atiyoga in mind, he just reminded everyone that the methods are secondary.

So no one is actually even proposing doing "Dzogchen without sadhana", such an idea, that you have to deliberately exclude sadhana practice is kinda absurd.
This might seem trivial but is significant - ati guru yoga as taught by ChNNr did also have sadhanas, though mostly fairly unelaborate, and every deity yoga sadhana taught by him that I can think of started with ati guru yoga. He said, over and over again, that this was the only essential practice that everyone should do. So if the question is - can you practice "Dzogchen without a *deity*/two stages sadhana" - with ChNNr, absolutely you could, as you can with various other teachers.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:58 am
Kai lord wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:59 pm ...
Its not until Nupchen Sangye Yeshe in his famous anuyoga commentary, Armor Against Darkness, that the arguments for Atiyoga as an independent vehicle totally divorce from Mahayoga and the nine vehicle doxography really appeared as a formal debate.

Hence the movement to make Dzogchen an independent vehicle started even before the 17 tantras were formally written down. And as you can see, that debate continues till today.
what are the earliest sources where practices of rushens tregchö and thögel are described?
Written or oral? Regardless the oral transmission definitely began much earlier

Also Its really depends on individual. If you believe that Guru Rinpoche was the one who wrote the termas down for the incarnations of his disciples to uncover them centuries later, then 8th century. If not it will be around the time when the first terma was unearthed, 11th century.

The Citta section of Kama collection largely contained works or early tantras from the semde series thanks to the effort by Vairotsana. Maybe they also contained some earlier vague forms of Togal, Rushens, etc practices, I don't know. But you can ask any Khenpos from kathok, etc, about that.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Terma »

Of course we all know that dharma is not a "one size fits all" kind of thing. Each of us have our own karmic propensities and each of our paths will not be the same.

It has been said before many times, even only a few pages back- that without a teacher, we can't say we practice Dzogchen. Some may argue that they have had this or that transmission, or direct introduction, or pointing out instructions from this or that great master. While that is wonderful, it is still not quite the same as having a bit of ongoing personal advice with a master, with whom we can share our experiences and understanding. Then we will get the guidance we really need and if we have trust and faith we will follow it.

This thread has also reminded me of the "Dzogchen with or without ngondro" threads. Of course, one can absolutely practice Dzogchen without ngondro or any other secondary practices.

But most of the good lamas I have met still really push the importance of ngondro, and not according to numbers but rather signs. Once again, this demonstrates the need for ongoing guidance.

As I mentioned above, sure if we have the good fortune to receive Dzogchen teachings then we must have the connection amd a certain amount of merit, but even then we may only be scratching at the surface and not have the experience or realisation that we think we do. In a recent conversation with an eminent Master, I was not told or ordered to do ngondro per say, but it was very gently suggested or advised to me that the benefits of doing the ngondro will make the practice of Dzogchen so much more authentic and deeper.

But of course they say there are the odd Cig Char wa out there, in which case one's teacher will probably let them know that none of that is necessary.

Either way, personally I am going to take and follow the advice of those who have agreed to give personal advice to me based on my own propensities. If we have trust amd faith in a master, then we know that their aspirations for us are the highest and they are suggesting what is best for us at that time.

Otherwise, the whole conversation is interesting nonetheless.

:namaste:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 am
yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:58 am what are the earliest sources where practices of rushens tregchö and thögel are described?
Written or oral?
written. i am curious if practices of rushens tregchö and thögel were described prior to Vima Nyingthig
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:42 am
Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:17 am
yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:58 am what are the earliest sources where practices of rushens tregchö and thögel are described?
Written or oral?
written. i am curious if practices of rushens tregchö and thögel were described prior to Vima Nyingthig


Actually I already answered you in second paragraph onwards of the previous post.

Outside those written texts found in those hidden termas, its unlikely.

The Lamp for the Eye of Contemplation by gNubs chen sangs rgyas ye shes, dates to the late ninth or early tenth century, quoted mainly from early semde texts to defend his position that Dzogchen should be treated as an independent ninth vehicle.

So that's hoe we know, at least until early tenth century, there were no widely transmitted texts written on longde and instructions series that described those practices.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:33 pm Actually I already answered you in second paragraph onwards of the previous post.
yep, i just wanted to clarify.
did you take a look into "effortless spontaniety" by Esler by any chance?
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:14 pm ...Vimalamitra primarily spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho, and thogal.
ok, so basically that's not quite substantiated opinion. we don't even know if rushens tregcho and thogal did exist during Vimalamitra time. not that they didn't, we just don't really know. there are 2 centuries between Vimalamitra and Zhangton Tashi Dorje's revelations of Vima Nyingthig
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:08 pm
Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:33 pm Actually I already answered you in second paragraph onwards of the previous post.
yep, i just wanted to clarify.
did you take a look into "effortless spontaniety" by Esler by any chance?
Not yet. Too many things to read on my part.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:14 pm ...Vimalamitra primarily spent his time practicing rushen, trekcho, and thogal.
ok, so basically that's not quite substantiated opinion. we don't even know if rushens tregcho and thogal did exist during Vimalamitra time. not that they didn't, we just don't really know. there are 2 centuries between Vimalamitra and Zhangton Tashi Dorje's revelations of Vima Nyingthig
We can infer from the fact Vimalamitra and other early lineage masters did receive some oral instructions on trekchod and togal based on the fact that he and others accomplished Jaluchenpo.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:13 pm the fact Vimalamitra and other early lineage masters did receive some oral instructions on trekchod and togal based on
Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:13 pm ...the fact that he and others accomplished Jaluchenpo.
don't want to sound bitter but how do we know these 2 to be the facts?

i probably have to apologize at this point as no one obliged to proof anything to me.
would be nice to know though what was happening at those obscure times.
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