The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

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Johnny Dangerous
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The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:53 pm
Also I’m skeptical as to a distinction between developing trekchod based on semdzins vs. shine. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen techniques like gazing on the white ah actually called a semdzin somewhere.

So, I don’t really get the functional distinction other than Semdzins being more entertaining and interesting than traditional Shine techniques. I don’t mean that facetiously, more entertaining often means more engaging…but I don’t really get the distinction outside of this or that (maybe hyperbolic) claim of greater efficacy..
The term semzin is a translation of the term dharāṇa, as as it sounds, it is a prelude to dhyāna and samādhi.

There are twenty-one semzins mentioned explicitly in the the Dzogchen tantras and there is a smaller subset identified by . They are divided into three groups: the first group of seven are for placing the mind in a calm state; the second group of seven are for parting mind and body; and the third group of seven are for entering into dharmatā. Then there is rushan practice. But as I already mentioned, Longchenpa criticizes the approach of normative śamatha and vipaśyanā, which is object-bases. You might object, the semzins are object based as well. However, the semszin are structured in a logical sequence which indeed is more efficient, and allow one to easily discover the natural dhyāna of rig pa, which after all is the point.

This is far more effective than trying to achieve perfect śamatha, which is still based in mind, and is without any method of nakedly exposing rig pa.
Yes, I’m familiar with the Semdzins, I have both (all three if we count PV?) of ChNNs works on them. I’ve certainly made use of them and don’t doubt their efficacy…but:

In some teachings it seems like one achieves shamatha only up to point of recognition, or just developing enough stability to facilitate recognition…in that case I don’t really see a difference between using the Semdzins or whatever shamatha method beyond technique preference.

If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:53 pm
Also I’m skeptical as to a distinction between developing trekchod based on semdzins vs. shine. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen techniques like gazing on the white ah actually called a semdzin somewhere.

So, I don’t really get the functional distinction other than Semdzins being more entertaining and interesting than traditional Shine techniques. I don’t mean that facetiously, more entertaining often means more engaging…but I don’t really get the distinction outside of this or that (maybe hyperbolic) claim of greater efficacy..
The term semzin is a translation of the term dharāṇa, as as it sounds, it is a prelude to dhyāna and samādhi.

There are twenty-one semzins mentioned explicitly in the the Dzogchen tantras and there is a smaller subset identified by . They are divided into three groups: the first group of seven are for placing the mind in a calm state; the second group of seven are for parting mind and body; and the third group of seven are for entering into dharmatā. Then there is rushan practice. But as I already mentioned, Longchenpa criticizes the approach of normative śamatha and vipaśyanā, which is object-bases. You might object, the semzins are object based as well. However, the semszin are structured in a logical sequence which indeed is more efficient, and allow one to easily discover the natural dhyāna of rig pa, which after all is the point.

This is far more effective than trying to achieve perfect śamatha, which is still based in mind, and is without any method of nakedly exposing rig pa.
Yes, I’m familiar with the Semdzins, I have both (all three if we count PV?) of ChNNs works on them. I’ve certainly made use of them and don’t doubt their efficacy…but:

In some teachings it seems like one achieves shamatha only up to point of recognition, or just developing enough stability to facilitate recognition…in that case I don’t really see a difference between using the Semdzins or whatever shamatha method beyond technique preference.

If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
I also believe that Alan doesnt say that. I havent received teachings from him in a long time but in my memory he showed the validity of other aplroaches. But his students really seem to think that perfect shamata is a prerequesit for practicing dzogchen. They even seem to think that shamata stabilizes the view which i dont understand how the relative is supposed to stabilize the ultimate.

I dont even think that any degree of shamata is a prerequesit in the sense that the semdzins and rushens cultivate the union of shine and lhagtong and not just shine
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
He might say in that instance, but I believe there are other instances where he has said the contrary or provided more nuance. I.e something along the lines of 'not having achieved perfect shamatha shouldn't dissuade one from approaching Dzogchen'. I think this may have been in a Gelug Mahamudra retreat where he also touched on Karma Chagmé’s Naked Awareness: Practical Teachings on the Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Maybe elsewhere?

It's a point that is worth investigating directly with BAW or his senior students, imo, since it's one that has popped up a few times on DW. Teachers say different things at different times to different audiences. Some might see this as contradictory or confusing, but there's usually circumstantial reasons for it. Sometimes even teachers encounter new material or understanding but haven't had the chance to set the record straight regarding earlier statements.

Lots of teachers highlight the benefits of a calm state in general, sometimes comparing one's stability to a candle light with or without protection from wind.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

B.Alan Wallace:
  • And yes your vipassana will go much better if you fully achieve shamatha. And right on through. Yes it will go much better if you really accomplish the earlier stages. Yes that’s true. Yes there is a path. Yes there is a sequence of practices and no don’t get stuck, get rigid and say I’m not moving until you know, I’ve achieved fully achieved shamatha. As one of my teachers said if you take that approach you could be stuck just on taking refuge forever. Because well, I’ve not really fathomed the full meaning of taking refuge so I won’t even go beyond it. Maybe that will work out well. But then maybe it will just kind of keep you stuck in kindergarten forever.

    So, there’s that balance. Recognize the sequence but also go ahead and seed your mind with forays into these more advanced practices. And then come back to your main core practices that really serve you where you live right now. But continue seeding with these more advanced practices. And that really, that’s what I’ve been told by multiple teachers, Geshe Rabten, Gyatrul Rinpoche and so on. That’s really the way that the great adepts of the past have done.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
Why would you want your senses withdrawn for dzogchen practice?
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
Why would you want your senses withdrawn for dzogchen practice?
The start of the paragraph mentioning the withdrawal of senses:
According to Buddhaghosa, the most authoritative commentator of Theravada Buddhism...
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:05 pm B.Alan Wallace:
  • And yes your vipassana will go much better if you fully achieve shamatha.
And Longchenpa, Treasury of Dharmadhātu Autocommentary:

Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core (snying thig)] is superior.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:14 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:40 pm

Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
Why would you want your senses withdrawn for dzogchen practice?
The start of the paragraph mentioning the withdrawal of senses:
According to Buddhaghosa, the most authoritative commentator of Theravada Buddhism...
Yes buddhagosa was not a dzogchen practitioner
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:24 pm
Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:05 pm B.Alan Wallace:
  • And yes your vipassana will go much better if you fully achieve shamatha.
And Longchenpa, Treasury of Dharmadhātu Autocommentary:

Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core (snying thig)] is superior.
Yeah, I mean we all know that nyingthig and menagade exceptionalism exists, and for good reason, but that doesn't negate the practicality and usefulness of shine & lhagtong [within a dzogchen framework] and the semde series for a vast number of dzogchen practitioners worldwide.

What's best from the perspective of a practitioner like Longchenpa with the highest of highest capacities might not be best for the majority of practitioners with much lesser or middling capacities or circumstances.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:24 pm
Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:05 pm B.Alan Wallace:
  • And yes your vipassana will go much better if you fully achieve shamatha.
And Longchenpa, Treasury of Dharmadhātu Autocommentary:

Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core (snying thig)] is superior.
Yeah, I mean we all know that nyingthig and menagade exceptionalism exists, and for good reason, but that doesn't negate the practicality and usefulness of shine & lhagtong [within a dzogchen framework] and the semde series for a vast number of dzogchen practitioners worldwide.

What's best from the perspective of a practitioner like Longchenpa with the highest of highest capacities might not be best for the majority of practitioners with much lesser or middling capacities or circumstances.
The way i was taught semde and what i read about doesnt equate at all with the type of shamata that Alan describe.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:52 pm It's a point that is worth investigating directly with BAW or his senior students...

What's best from the perspective of a practitioner like Longchenpa with the highest of highest capacities might not be best for the majority of practitioners with much lesser or middling capacities or circumstances.
https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/spring2016/

All you need to do is look over these transcripts, and you can see that BAW clearly insists that one must, as a preliminary, focus on perfecting śamatha.

But this is not the path of Dzogchen and it never has been. Longchenpa again:

Here, the special path of the essential core (snying thig) is superior in five ways to the common meditations employed as the path: (1) There is no distinction between sharp and dull in faculties because vidyā is nakedly realized. (2) There is no dependence on analytical wisdom because pellucidity is directly realized by one’s sense organs. (3) There is no hope for meaning in intellectualism and rhetoric because vidyā that is beyond words is realized to be pellucid. {420} (4) Other than whatever appears as positive and negative delusions, there is no basis for confident clinging and grasping to appearances because the three kāyas are realized to be path appearances. (5) View, meditation, conduct, and result are seen as obscurations of vidyā because naked vidyā is pellucid. Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core] is superior.

And the Sound Tantra:

There are neither dull nor sharp in capacity.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

I don't really have a horse in this race to be honest.

If a Dzogchen practitioner finds Alan and his teachings beneficial for any aspect their study and practice, then so be it :smile:
If they don't, then so be it.

He is obviously connected with many many good practice lineages and people are free to assimilate the parts they find useful and discount the other incompatible parts.
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:43 pm The way i was taught semde and what i read about doesnt equate at all with the type of shamata that Alan describe.
If Dudjom Lingpa's teachings on shamatha aren't Dzogchen-informed enough, I don't know what will be.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:44 pm Longchenpa again:

Here, the special path of the essential core (snying thig) is superior in five ways to the common meditations employed as the path: (1) There is no distinction between sharp and dull in faculties because vidyā is nakedly realized. [...]

And the Sound Tantra:

There are neither dull nor sharp in capacity.
Do these unequivocally trump the categories of capacities listed in Namkhai Norbu's books on semde, shine and lhatong? What is the value of them for a practitioner with access to some of NNR's or another lineage's nyingthig?

Either way, descriptive terms connected with shamatha and clarity can still provide use/insight/reminders for those working with the rigpa of Dzogchen, when presented within that larger framework, but your mileage may vary.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 5:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:31 pm
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/
He states in his Wisdom Experience courses that he thinks achieving shamatha is a good goal, but does not present it as a pre requisite for Dzogchen. Indeed, that wouldn’t even make sense for the text he’s teaching.

I also know people who have done retreat with him with pointing out instruction etc. who have not achieved shamatha.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:44 pm Longchenpa again:

Here, the special path of the essential core (snying thig) is superior in five ways to the common meditations employed as the path: (1) There is no distinction between sharp and dull in faculties because vidyā is nakedly realized. [...]

And the Sound Tantra:

There are neither dull nor sharp in capacity.
Do these unequivocally trump the categories of capacities listed in Namkhai Norbu's books on semde, shine and lhatong?
Of course. Also ChNN commentary on Longsal trekcho literally reproduces Longchenpa's commments on the kind of śamatha and vipaśyanā I mentioned above, pg. 95-97.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:13 pm He states in his Wisdom Experience courses that he thinks achieving shamatha is a good goal, but does not present it as a pre requisite for Dzogchen. Indeed, that wouldn’t even make sense for the text he’s working off of.
Nevertheless, his students think it is is a prerequisite and have told me he insists on it in his retreats. There are people out there trying achieve perfect śamatha in retreat because they believe that is what BAW wants before moving on to Dzogchen. There must be a reason why so many of them think this and act accordingly, right?

In any case, I am just reflecting what Longchenpa says and what my own gurus have taught in relationship to that. People are free to do what they want and follow who they want. It's not like achieving perfect śamatha according to the middle Bhāvanakrma is a bad thing, it just isn't Dzogchen at all.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Vasana wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:50 pm I don't really have a horse in this race to be honest.

If a Dzogchen practitioner finds Alan and his teachings beneficial for any aspect their study and practice, then so be it :smile:
If they don't, then so be it.

He is obviously connected with many many good practice lineages and people are free to assimilate the parts they find useful and discount the other incompatible parts.
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:43 pm The way i was taught semde and what i read about doesnt equate at all with the type of shamata that Alan describe.
If Dudjom Lingpa's teachings on shamatha aren't Dzogchen-informed enough, I don't know what will be.
When i read the vajra essence i was not so familiared with dzogchen so i can comment on that unless i re read it. But in dzogchen semde one doesnt look for a state of absortion with sense withdrawal. In dzogchen Vision, appareances are the method so why would one want that?
But as i say i dont know if dudjom lingpa indicates that kind of shamata as a goal or if that is Alans interpretation.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:13 pm He states in his Wisdom Experience courses that he thinks achieving shamatha is a good goal, but does not present it as a pre requisite for Dzogchen. Indeed, that wouldn’t even make sense for the text he’s working off of.
Nevertheless, his students think it is is a prerequisite and have told me he insists on it in his retreats. There are people out there trying achieve perfect śamatha in retreat because they believe that is what BAW wants before moving on to Dzogchen. There must be a reason why so many of them think this and act accordingly, right?

In any case, I am just reflecting what Longchenpa says and what my own gurus have taught in relationship to that. People are free to do what they want and follow who they want. It's not like achieving perfect śamatha according to the middle Bhāvanakrma is a bad thing, it just isn't Dzogchen at all.
Ok man.

In my limited exposure to what he actually teaches it is similar to (for example) what is found in The Practice of contemplation, moving from object focused to no object and from there pointing out instruction. But it’s all good if you want to get polemical about his stuff, not my wheelhouse. :shrug:
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:13 pm He states in his Wisdom Experience courses that he thinks achieving shamatha is a good goal, but does not present it as a pre requisite for Dzogchen. Indeed, that wouldn’t even make sense for the text he’s working off of.
Nevertheless, his students think it is is a prerequisite and have told me he insists on it in his retreats. There are people out there trying achieve perfect śamatha in retreat because they believe that is what BAW wants before moving on to Dzogchen. There must be a reason why so many of them think this and act accordingly, right?

In any case, I am just reflecting what Longchenpa says and what my own gurus have taught in relationship to that. People are free to do what they want and follow who they want. It's not like achieving perfect śamatha according to the middle Bhāvanakrma is a bad thing, it just isn't Dzogchen at all.
You can always spot an BAW student in a buddhist crowd because they always ask the teacher who is present about achieving shamata.
If you ask me its kind of a stresfull thing to always be thinking about that
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