The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

stoneinfocus
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stoneinfocus »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:15 pm I really dont see that guruyoga and trekchö is the same thing. The state of guruyoga is trekchö in my humble opinion not the normal generation of the guru in front or in the heart or whatever. So the practice of guruyoga normally includes generation stage and then when you become one with the guru completion where you try to rest in trekchö. It is confusing to call the practice of guruyoga for trekchö.
About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage? :smile: ,
a new yana maybe :smile:
There are different levels of guru yoga. Generating the Guru and supplication are outer and inner levels, but deeper levels are resting in trekchod. Still, the idea for every level is to bring us to "the state of Guru yoga"/trekchod.

Per Phakchok Rinpoche:

Since today being so special and therefore auspicious, I thought I say a little on “Lame Naljor” or Guru Yoga, which is the practice of merging your mind with the wisdom mind of the guru.

Five Ways of Practicing of Guru Yoga

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting blessings through supplication
2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and receiving the four empowerments
3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting uncontrived in equipoise
5. Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting Blessings through Supplication
The first guru yoga is to make supplication, so we visualize the guru in the space in front of us. We fold our palms and with our speech we say, “I go for refuge in you. I have no other hope but you. I supplicate you from the very depths of my heart!”. We really think like this in our minds and give rise to sincere faith and devotion. So in this way we make supplications, requesting the guru, “Please look on me with your compassion and bestow your blessings!” just as is taught in Calling the Guru from Afar. That’s the outer guru yoga of supplication.

2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and Receiving the Four Empowerments
Inner guru yoga is mantra recitation for the guru, so [if the guru is Guru Rinpoche] then we recite the Vajra Guru mantra and visualize receiving the four empowerments from the Guru visualized in the space before us. First, from the white Om in the guru’s forehead white light-rays radiate out and strike out own forehead so that we attain the blessings of enlightened body. Then from the guru’s throat, red light-rays radiate out and strike our throat so that we attain the blessings of enlightened speech. Then from the blue letter Hung in the guru’s heart centre, blue light-rays radiate out and strike out heart centre so that we attain the blessings of enlightened mind. Then for the fourth empowerment there are two different traditions: one way is to visualize yellow light-rays radiating out from the letter Hrih in the guru’s navel and another way is to visualize white, red, and blue light-rays radiating out simultaneously from all of the three syllables (Om, Ah, and Hung). Either way, by these light-rays striking you, you imagine that primordial wisdom has been born within your stream of being. You have then received the four empowerments blessing you with enlightened body, speech, mind, and primordial wisdom.

3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
Whoever the guru may be, you think you’ve now attained all of their blessings through receiving the four empowerments, as was just explained, and the guru now dissolves into yourself through the central channel on the crown of your head. By doing so, the guru’s enlightened body and your body, the guru’s enlightened speech and your speech, and the guru’s enlightened mind and your mind have become completely indivisible, inseparable and you remain within that state.

4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting Uncontrived in Equipoise
Resting in equipoise. You leave your mind completely uncontrived, unfabricated, unaltered, totally at ease. This is the innermost secret guru yoga.

5. Unexcelled Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially Pure and Spontaneously Present
What is the essence of the guru? Primordially pure, primordially unborn. What are the excellent qualities of the guru? They are spontaneously present. The guru’s knowledge, love, and capacity are spontaneously present; they’ve been there, present from beginningless, primordial time. You need to understand these two: primordially pure and spontaneously present. You need to understand, “These have never been separate or apart from me. My own mind is primordially pure. My own mind is spontaneously present. This itself is the guru. I’ve never been separated from these.” Understanding primordially purity and spontaneous presence and being able to rest in equipoise within that state is the unexcelled innermost guru yoga.
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Sādhaka
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:22 am
Sādhaka wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:29 pm
Sure. But as I’d mentioned, the winds are prone to flowing or not flowing through specific channels at certain times.

If some great masters needed bog ‘don or geg sel at times to ‘counteract’ that, then what does it say about us?

Why make things sound so difficult? :tongue:

:)

That’s why I added this part in my post:

Sādhaka wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:29 pmYet like I’d said, I couldn't judge who’s a rim gyi pa, thod rgal pa, or cig car ba

At the same time, as Malcolm mentioned, in the supreme view of Mahasandi, there is no division of capacities

And as I’d mentioned the Gyalwa Dalai Lama’s books on Dzogchen, he talks about how the Guru can introduce the Mind of Clear Light to the student without having to induce the experience with Yogic practices with the Central Channel etc. as in Tantrayana.

Now no one who practices Dzogchen necessarily needs Trul Khor or Tsa Lung; but I think that you’d be hard pressed to find a Dzogchen Yogi who didn’t practice it at some point, even if they were not interested in practicing Tantra.
merilingpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:15 pm About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage? :smile: ,
a new yana maybe :smile:
It’s how we enter the primordial state. It’s nongradual, there are no stages, nothing to be done before.
Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.
merilingpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

stoneinfocus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:59 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:15 pm I really dont see that guruyoga and trekchö is the same thing. The state of guruyoga is trekchö in my humble opinion not the normal generation of the guru in front or in the heart or whatever. So the practice of guruyoga normally includes generation stage and then when you become one with the guru completion where you try to rest in trekchö. It is confusing to call the practice of guruyoga for trekchö.
About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage? :smile: ,
a new yana maybe :smile:
There are different levels of guru yoga. Generating the Guru and supplication are outer and inner levels, but deeper levels are resting in trekchod. Still, the idea for every level is to bring us to "the state of Guru yoga"/trekchod.

Per Phakchok Rinpoche:

Since today being so special and therefore auspicious, I thought I say a little on “Lame Naljor” or Guru Yoga, which is the practice of merging your mind with the wisdom mind of the guru.

Five Ways of Practicing of Guru Yoga

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting blessings through supplication
2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and receiving the four empowerments
3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting uncontrived in equipoise
5. Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting Blessings through Supplication
The first guru yoga is to make supplication, so we visualize the guru in the space in front of us. We fold our palms and with our speech we say, “I go for refuge in you. I have no other hope but you. I supplicate you from the very depths of my heart!”. We really think like this in our minds and give rise to sincere faith and devotion. So in this way we make supplications, requesting the guru, “Please look on me with your compassion and bestow your blessings!” just as is taught in Calling the Guru from Afar. That’s the outer guru yoga of supplication.

2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and Receiving the Four Empowerments
Inner guru yoga is mantra recitation for the guru, so [if the guru is Guru Rinpoche] then we recite the Vajra Guru mantra and visualize receiving the four empowerments from the Guru visualized in the space before us. First, from the white Om in the guru’s forehead white light-rays radiate out and strike out own forehead so that we attain the blessings of enlightened body. Then from the guru’s throat, red light-rays radiate out and strike our throat so that we attain the blessings of enlightened speech. Then from the blue letter Hung in the guru’s heart centre, blue light-rays radiate out and strike out heart centre so that we attain the blessings of enlightened mind. Then for the fourth empowerment there are two different traditions: one way is to visualize yellow light-rays radiating out from the letter Hrih in the guru’s navel and another way is to visualize white, red, and blue light-rays radiating out simultaneously from all of the three syllables (Om, Ah, and Hung). Either way, by these light-rays striking you, you imagine that primordial wisdom has been born within your stream of being. You have then received the four empowerments blessing you with enlightened body, speech, mind, and primordial wisdom.

3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
Whoever the guru may be, you think you’ve now attained all of their blessings through receiving the four empowerments, as was just explained, and the guru now dissolves into yourself through the central channel on the crown of your head. By doing so, the guru’s enlightened body and your body, the guru’s enlightened speech and your speech, and the guru’s enlightened mind and your mind have become completely indivisible, inseparable and you remain within that state.

4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting Uncontrived in Equipoise
Resting in equipoise. You leave your mind completely uncontrived, unfabricated, unaltered, totally at ease. This is the innermost secret guru yoga.

5. Unexcelled Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially Pure and Spontaneously Present
What is the essence of the guru? Primordially pure, primordially unborn. What are the excellent qualities of the guru? They are spontaneously present. The guru’s knowledge, love, and capacity are spontaneously present; they’ve been there, present from beginningless, primordial time. You need to understand these two: primordially pure and spontaneously present. You need to understand, “These have never been separate or apart from me. My own mind is primordially pure. My own mind is spontaneously present. This itself is the guru. I’ve never been separated from these.” Understanding primordially purity and spontaneous presence and being able to rest in equipoise within that state is the unexcelled innermost guru yoga.
I agree fully with what you say but when you just say guruyoga it normally involves somekind of development before you become one with the guru and rests in that. There are guruyogas that are very extensive and there are more unelaborate ones but there is still some kind of doing something, generating or recollecting that needs to be done before you rest.
stoneinfocus
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stoneinfocus »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:19 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:59 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:15 pm I really dont see that guruyoga and trekchö is the same thing. The state of guruyoga is trekchö in my humble opinion not the normal generation of the guru in front or in the heart or whatever. So the practice of guruyoga normally includes generation stage and then when you become one with the guru completion where you try to rest in trekchö. It is confusing to call the practice of guruyoga for trekchö.
About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage? :smile: ,
a new yana maybe :smile:
There are different levels of guru yoga. Generating the Guru and supplication are outer and inner levels, but deeper levels are resting in trekchod. Still, the idea for every level is to bring us to "the state of Guru yoga"/trekchod.

Per Phakchok Rinpoche:

Since today being so special and therefore auspicious, I thought I say a little on “Lame Naljor” or Guru Yoga, which is the practice of merging your mind with the wisdom mind of the guru.

Five Ways of Practicing of Guru Yoga

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting blessings through supplication
2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and receiving the four empowerments
3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting uncontrived in equipoise
5. Unsurpassable Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially pure and spontaneously present

1. Outer Guru Yoga: Requesting Blessings through Supplication
The first guru yoga is to make supplication, so we visualize the guru in the space in front of us. We fold our palms and with our speech we say, “I go for refuge in you. I have no other hope but you. I supplicate you from the very depths of my heart!”. We really think like this in our minds and give rise to sincere faith and devotion. So in this way we make supplications, requesting the guru, “Please look on me with your compassion and bestow your blessings!” just as is taught in Calling the Guru from Afar. That’s the outer guru yoga of supplication.

2. Inner Guru Yoga: Recitation and Receiving the Four Empowerments
Inner guru yoga is mantra recitation for the guru, so [if the guru is Guru Rinpoche] then we recite the Vajra Guru mantra and visualize receiving the four empowerments from the Guru visualized in the space before us. First, from the white Om in the guru’s forehead white light-rays radiate out and strike out own forehead so that we attain the blessings of enlightened body. Then from the guru’s throat, red light-rays radiate out and strike our throat so that we attain the blessings of enlightened speech. Then from the blue letter Hung in the guru’s heart centre, blue light-rays radiate out and strike out heart centre so that we attain the blessings of enlightened mind. Then for the fourth empowerment there are two different traditions: one way is to visualize yellow light-rays radiating out from the letter Hrih in the guru’s navel and another way is to visualize white, red, and blue light-rays radiating out simultaneously from all of the three syllables (Om, Ah, and Hung). Either way, by these light-rays striking you, you imagine that primordial wisdom has been born within your stream of being. You have then received the four empowerments blessing you with enlightened body, speech, mind, and primordial wisdom.

3. Secret Guru Yoga: Meditating on the Guru and Yourself as Indivisible
Whoever the guru may be, you think you’ve now attained all of their blessings through receiving the four empowerments, as was just explained, and the guru now dissolves into yourself through the central channel on the crown of your head. By doing so, the guru’s enlightened body and your body, the guru’s enlightened speech and your speech, and the guru’s enlightened mind and your mind have become completely indivisible, inseparable and you remain within that state.

4. Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Resting Uncontrived in Equipoise
Resting in equipoise. You leave your mind completely uncontrived, unfabricated, unaltered, totally at ease. This is the innermost secret guru yoga.

5. Unexcelled Innermost Secret Guru Yoga: Primordially Pure and Spontaneously Present
What is the essence of the guru? Primordially pure, primordially unborn. What are the excellent qualities of the guru? They are spontaneously present. The guru’s knowledge, love, and capacity are spontaneously present; they’ve been there, present from beginningless, primordial time. You need to understand these two: primordially pure and spontaneously present. You need to understand, “These have never been separate or apart from me. My own mind is primordially pure. My own mind is spontaneously present. This itself is the guru. I’ve never been separated from these.” Understanding primordially purity and spontaneous presence and being able to rest in equipoise within that state is the unexcelled innermost guru yoga.
I agree fully with what you say but when you just say guruyoga it normally involves somekind of development before you become one with the guru and rests in that. There are guruyogas that are very extensive and there are more unelaborate ones but there is still some kind of doing something, generating or recollecting that needs to be done before you rest.
The point of my post is that just resting in equipoise is guru yoga. To do this, one doesn't necessarily need to "do" anything, no generating, visualizing, thinking or recollecting. Sometimes you just rest.

Innermost Secret guru yoga = resting in equipoise, according to Phakchok Rinpoche's quote above
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:15 pm About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage? :smile: ,
a new yana maybe :smile:
It’s how we enter the primordial state. It’s nongradual, there are no stages, nothing to be done before.
Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.
Zoey85
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:05 am
Zoey85 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:15 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:29 pm


Sure. But as I’d mentioned, the winds are prone to flowing or not flowing through specific channels at certain times.

If some great masters needed bog ‘don or geg sel at times to 'counteract' that, then what does it say about us?

That we should also check and see if we need these exercises to counteract our rlung imbalances etc or if we do better simply resting in instant presence (which rapidly resolves rlung issues and directs the winds quickly into the central channel-says many teachers)? :shrug:

You said that ChNNR isn’t your main teacher, yet you have a connection to him and have received the transmission.

In such case, refer to page 266 of his The Precious Vase (and his other books on Yantra Yoga).

But yeah, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama addresses this as well, in his two English books on Dzogchen
I don't have any texts (except one) with me where I'm staying now, but will look forward to reading The Precious Vase if and when I have the chance. But I mainly just practice the instructions from my root Lama.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Zoey85 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:17 pmBut I mainly just practice the instructions from my root Lama.

:thumbsup:
Malcolm
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:19 pm
I agree fully with what you say but when you just say guruyoga it normally involves somekind of development before you become one with the guru and rests in that.
.
One does not become one with the guru in AGY, since one has never been separate from that to which one was is being introduced, that is, being introduced to one's own face/state/nature (ngo rang thog tu sprad). One just rests in the primordial state of ཨ.

rnal 'byor (nal mar 'byor ba) does not mean joining two things together. It means arriving in/encountering/settling in ('byor ba) one's real state (rnal ma).
merilingpa
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

But really some kind of effort is needed, otherwise you are already there, no.
My point again is that you need some kind of effort, you can call it generation stage, recollecting stage or whatever you want but the mind is needed to go beyond mind.
Otherwise we are already Samanthabadra, but sadly so it seems we are not :crying:
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:28 am
Jules 09 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:17 pm
So, Ati Guru Yoga is just a different name for The First Statement of Garab Dorje - Recognize your own nature.

!?
It is a practical application of all three, depending on the practitioner.
So, in other words, Trekcho..,
To relax means to have no concepts. It does not mean that you become like a stone, or that you are without consciousness. You are present and aware of everything, but you are not making judgements. In that moment you are beyond time and space. This is the state of Ati Guru Yoga.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:31 pm But really some kind of effort is needed, otherwise you are already there, no.
My point again is that you need some kind of effort, you can call it generation stage, recollecting stage or whatever you want but the mind is needed to go beyond mind.
Otherwise we are already Samanthabadra, but sadly so it seems we are not :crying:
It's helpful to re-read Longchenpa on this point (from his commentary on the Choying Dzöd):

The All-Creating Monarch states:

There is no greater hindrance to enlightenment than being unaware of what is already ensured, beyond effort and achievement, and instead viewing it as being ensured by meditation involving plans and actions, effort and achievement.

Someone might object, “This may indeed be the case, but something still needs to be done, for I have not yet reached that level.” My answer is as follows: Alas, unfortunate one. This is not a case of going from one place to another. Since there is no going, there is nowhere to arrive. You are truly astonishing—going to look for yourself when you already are yourself!
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by merilingpa »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:03 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 pm

It’s how we enter the primordial state. It’s nongradual, there are no stages, nothing to be done before.
Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.
I understand what you are saying , but if you do or recite a Dzogchen mantra you have to tell the mind to do so, no? So some kind of working with the mind is needed before you can integrate and go beyond the mind if you are not Samanthabadra.......
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kai lord »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:58 pm So some kind of working with the mind is needed before you can integrate and go beyond the mind if you are not Samanthabadra.......
Thats possible thanks to the five ever-functioning mental factors like distinguishing, paying attention/mental engagement, etc and the five ascertaining mental factors like recollection, conviction. etc that accompany every moment of cognition. Although the latter is said by Asanga is to be only functional for constructive cognitions that apprehend their objects.

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:03 pm Now no one who practices Dzogchen necessarily needs Trul Khor or Tsa Lung; but I think that you’d be hard pressed to find a Dzogchen Yogi who didn’t practice it at some point, even if they were not interested in practicing Tantra.
Yeah most people tend to forget that masters like Tsogyal and Yuthok were not only masters of Atiyoga but also Karmamudra and they were simply masters in handling their bindus....... so well that the latter even did a public display of Jalu
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by stoneinfocus »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:03 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pm

Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.
I understand what you are saying , but if you do or recite a Dzogchen mantra you have to tell the mind to do so, no? So some kind of working with the mind is needed before you can integrate and go beyond the mind if you are not Samanthabadra.......
When one practice enough, these moments of equipoise start to happen naturally without effort, though they are not continuous until one is more advanced. At first, effort is required. With familiarity and practice, effort is not always required.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:31 pm
Yeah most people tend to forget that masters like Tsogyal and Yuthok were not only masters of Atiyoga but also Karmamudra and they were simply masters in handling their bindus....... so well that the latter even did a public display of Jalu
Equally to the point, you can't get there from here with relative bindus.
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:03 pm
merilingpa wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:13 pm

Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.
I understand what you are saying , but if you do or recite a Dzogchen mantra you have to tell the mind to do so, no? So some kind of working with the mind is needed before you can integrate and go beyond the mind if you are not Samanthabadra.......
There is no where to go. Blo 'das, beyond mind, simply means one has dropped thought for instant presence, it isn't a state beyond the mind, actually. It does not mean one uses a concept to counteract concepts--that's the path of renunciation and transformation. In the path of self-liberation, concepts have always been liberated in and of themselves since the state of concepts is nonarising. That is what it means to be in the state of ཨ. Deciding to make a sound is certainly is an intention, which is liberated in and of itself, but it is not necessarily working with the mind, for example, when one engages in an analytical investigation for the nature of the mind. The mind and nature of the mind are not mutually exclusive phenomena. When one has not recognized the nature of the mind; mind is in control it seems hard and solid; when one has recognized the nature of the mind, pristine consciousness is in control, because the mind is not hard and solid. For example, if you have tasted a piece of ice, you know that ice melts and becomes water. Even if all the ice is still frozen, you know it is water and you do not have to concern yourself any longer about the nature of ice.
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Kelwin
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Kelwin »

Malcolm, thank you for so consistently being precise and trustworthy in all that you do here. I found myself agreeing with some objections you faced, including from my dear dharma friend Magnus. Yet, every time, you point out accurately what the tradtion of Dzogchen says about these topics. That interaction is amazing.

In recent days your replies have not just educated me, like they have already for so many years, but opened my mind more and more. Something changed. Thank you so very very much.

Sorry mods if this is off topic. Tears in my eyes and grateful.
Zoey85
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Zoey85 »

Kelwin wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 pm Malcolm, thank you for so consistently being precise and trustworthy in all that you do here. I found myself agreeing with some objections you faced, including from my dear dharma friend Magnus. Yet, every time, you point out accurately what the tradtion of Dzogchen says about these topics. That interaction is amazing.

In recent days your replies have not just educated me, like they have already for so many years, but opened my mind more and more. Something changed. Thank you so very very much.

Sorry mods if this is off topic. Tears in my eyes and grateful.
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Pema Rigdzin
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Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

heart wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:17 pm Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.
If you visualize your fleshy heart, as a method to recollect its presence and function, have you generated it or merely recollected that which has been there but simply can’t be seen with your eyes?
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
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