natusake wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 6:10 pm
stong gzugs wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:25 pm
It's also worth noting here that even these early stages aren't about the inherent emptiness of x (svabhāvaśūnyatā), but about the extrinsic emptiness of x as being empty of y (parabhāvaśūnyatā).
Why would the two be mutually exclusive?
I don't know about mutually exclusive, but they're different meditative practices, and this difference has to do roughly with debates on affirming vs. non-affirming negations. The followers of Cāndrakirti primarily practice svabhāvaśūnyatā, where you take an object and realize its emptiness through analysis, and then that's it. The object dissolves and so does its emptiness, there's nothing left to work with. The problem is that you can spend all day dissolving chariots and tables, sprouts and seeds, and it won't necessarily get you deeper than the superficial objects of conventional appearance because that's your starting point and your ending point. In contrast, with parabhāvaśūnyatā, you dissolve an object, but in doing so, realize a deeper level into which the object dissolved. In this way, you can pursue emptiness in progressively deeper levels, far beyond chariots and tables, until you get to the end-point into which all things dissolve, the ālāya-jñāna. The objects dissolve into a basic wisdom awareness that is itself empty of these objects, as described in the gzhanstong literature, and which this early sutta points towards. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's
Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness does a nice job of explaining this process.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 6:20 pm
It’s like if a Buddha sits and perceives himself and everything directly and clearly as the vast space between atoms. There’s still emptiness built upon
something. if there were nothing, what could one dwell in?
I think the above point kind of distinguishes between different ways that emptiness can be built upon something. This Sūtra below also knocks it out of the park in terms of explanation.
Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra wrote:Childish beings may think of hailstones as being gems and take them home, but then they see them melt and think, "Oh, they are empty." Likewise, through reflecting and meditating on utter emptiness, you, Mañjuśrī, see all phenomena dissolve. You even think that liberation, which is not empty, is empty. Just as some people may meditate on gems as being empty due to their mistaking hailstones for gems and seeing those hailstones melt away, you even think of nonempty phenomena as being empty. Seeing phenomena as empty, you also destroy nonempty phenomena as being empty. However, empty phenomena are different from nonempty phenomena. Just like hailstones, the billions of afflictions are empty. Just like hailstones, nonvirtuous phenomena swiftly perish. But the Buddha and liberation are permanent, like a beryl. As for space, buddhas have form, while all śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas lack form. The liberation of a buddha is also form, while the liberations of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas lack form, so how can you say that the characteristic of liberation is to be empty? Do not entertain this notion of there being no [such] divisions.
If there are no people in a house, it is empty. If there is no water in a vase, it is empty. If no water flows in a river, it is empty. The house is not empty in all respects—it is called "empty" because there are no people in it. The vase is not empty in all respects—it is called "empty" because there is no water in it.The river is not empty in all respects—it is called "empty" because no water flows in it. Likewise, liberation is not empty in all respects—it is called "empty" because it is free from all flaws. The Buddha is not empty either—he is called empty because he is free from all flaws and lacks any human or divine existence entailing billions of afflictions. Alas, Mañjuśrī, you behave like a mosquito, not understanding the precise meaning of empty and nonempty. The Nirgranthas also meditate on everything’s being empty, so you Nirgrantha mosquito, say no more!
Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 6:25 pm
No, you abide in the presence of the objects of the six āyatanas and the body, all they are empty of is affliction, desire for rebirth, and [afflictive] ignorance.
Not quite. I've studied Bhikkhu Bodhi and particularly Bhikkhu Ānālayo on this practice, and the full realization of emptiness is accomplished in the stage of recognizing even the emptiness of signlessness, which ends all grasping even onto the experience of emptiness. The next statement about the six sense bases is saying that what remains after fully realizing emptiness in meditation is the continuity of our lives as embodied beings, just now without any influxes. Nirvana with remainder.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 6:25 pm
Amazing, so you are declaring a "first turning sūtra" to be definitive.
Only the sūtras and tantras of the Kṛtayuga Dharma identified by the Omniscient Dölpopa are definitive. You should know that by now
But, for real, given the huge emphasis on anāpānasati and mindfulness in the (first turning) Buddhist world today, it's surprising how underappreciated this emptiness practice is, particularly as the Buddha said it was basically the definitive practice for Tathāgatas.
Cūḷasuññatasutta wrote:Ānanda, whatever Tathāgatas, free from attachment and completely awakened, there have been in the past, they all truly dwelled in this emptiness, without distortion, namely in the eradication of the influxes, the influx-free and unconditioned liberation of the mind.
Ānanda, whatever Tathāgatas, free from attachment and completely awakened, there will be in the future, they will all truly dwell in this emptiness, without distortion, namely in the eradication of the influxes, the influx-free and unconditioned liberation of the mind.
Ānanda, I, who am the Tathāgata now, free from attachment and completely awakened, I also truly dwell in this emptiness, without distortion, namely in the eradication of the influxes, the influx-free and unconditioned liberation of the mind.
Ānanda, you should train yourself like this: ‘I shall also truly dwell in this emptiness, without distortion, namely in the eradication of the influxes, the influx-free and unconditioned liberation of the mind.’ Ānanda, you should train yourself like this.