Western Philosophy and emptiness

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
Rennigeb
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:36 am

Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Rennigeb »

I was thinking about how emptiness seems like a philosophical position. While I know it's against any kind of ontology or metaphysics in the Aristotelian sense, do you think there is any kind of philosophy that can be as deep and sophisticated or nearly as much as shunyata? If so, what is the criteria for choosing emptiness?
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

Conze has an article that has quite a bit about Madhyamaka in it:

Spurious Parallels to Buddhist Philosophy
By Edward Conze

Philosophy East and West 13, no.2, pp105-115 January 1963.
© by The University press of Hawaii.

"After an examination of the genuine parallels between European and Buddhist philosophy, we shall now consider a few of the more widely advocated spurious parallels. They often originate from a wish to find affinities with philosophers recognized and admired by the exponents of current academic philosophy, and intend to make Buddhist thinkers interesting and respectable by current Western standards.

Since this approach is not only objectively unsound, but has also failed in its purpose to interest Western philosophers in the philosophies of the East, the time has now come to abandon it. Modern academic philosophers normally have no interest in what Buddhists care for, and vice versa."

full text http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... Philosophy
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rennigeb wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:28 pm I was thinking about how emptiness seems like a philosophical position. While I know it's against any kind of ontology or metaphysics in the Aristotelian sense, do you think there is any kind of philosophy that can be as deep and sophisticated or nearly as much as shunyata? If so, what is the criteria for choosing emptiness?
It’s as philosophical as a sand castle.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Archie2009
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Archie2009 »

Emptiness. Just do it.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PeterC »

Aemilius wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:06 pm Conze has an article that has quite a bit about Madhyamaka in it:

Spurious Parallels to Buddhist Philosophy
By Edward Conze

Philosophy East and West 13, no.2, pp105-115 January 1963.
© by The University press of Hawaii.

"After an examination of the genuine parallels between European and Buddhist philosophy, we shall now consider a few of the more widely advocated spurious parallels. They often originate from a wish to find affinities with philosophers recognized and admired by the exponents of current academic philosophy, and intend to make Buddhist thinkers interesting and respectable by current Western standards.

Since this approach is not only objectively unsound, but has also failed in its purpose to interest Western philosophers in the philosophies of the East, the time has now come to abandon it. Modern academic philosophers normally have no interest in what Buddhists care for, and vice versa."

full text http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... Philosophy
Good article. Great title.
User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 4604
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

Conze has also written Buddhist prajÑĀ and Greek sophia, E. Conzé, Published 1 September 1975,
which I haven't read,

and Buddhist Philosophy and Its European Parallels, E. Conzé, Published 1 April 1963,
which I have read so long time ago, that I can't remember much of what it says.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
stong gzugs
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Westerhoff's book "The Non-existence of the Real World" basically reconstructs the arguments of Madhyamaka Buddhism using purely Western philosophical resources. It's a neat exercise. Here's a TLDR summary.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Kim O'Hara »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:34 am Westerhoff's book "The Non-existence of the Real World" basically reconstructs the arguments of Madhyamaka Buddhism using purely Western philosophical resources. It's a neat exercise. Here's a TLDR summary.
I like it. :smile:

And the first part of the discussion -
Hoffman explains that, contrary to popular belief, perceiving the world accurately does not give organisms a survival advantage. It seems intuitively obvious that animals who see reality as it is would be better at finding food, avoiding predators, and seeking mates — but what really matters is adaptive behavior tuned to fitness payoffs. [etc]

- reminded me of a similar assertion from Aldous Huxley in Doors of Perception, about his experience of psychedeilc drugs. (He argued that our normal consciousness acts as a "reducing valve" to select from the overwhelming flood of sense impressions only those which are useful for our survival.)

If it is true, or even if it is a non-falsifiable description of reality which (therefore) calls into question our whole consensus reality, the philosophical consequences are solipsism, relativism, contingent truth, etc, etc, which I don't find particularly interesting or useful. For me, the more interesting questions are about how sunyata should affect the way we live in the world.

:namaste:
Kim
stong gzugs
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:04 am For me, the more interesting questions are about how sunyata should affect the way we live in the world.
This is such an important and interesting question! Do you have a source you turn to for answers to how we should live in the world if it and us are empty?

The best one I can think of offhand is Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's The Sun of Wisdom.
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Kim O'Hara »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:04 am For me, the more interesting questions are about how sunyata should affect the way we live in the world.
This is such an important and interesting question! Do you have a source you turn to for answers to how we should live in the world if it and us are empty?

The best one I can think of offhand is Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso's The Sun of Wisdom.
:thanks:
Like most of us, I suspect, I largely make it up as I go along - using as guidelines the Golden Rule and whatever dharma teachings have come my way.
I've saved The Sun of Wisdom to read later, and I'm sure it will add to what I've already been working with.

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:04 am For me, the more interesting questions are about how sunyata should affect the way we live in the world.
This is such an important and interesting question! Do you have a source you turn to for answers to how we should live in the world if it and us are empty?
I think we can find very simple examples of sunyata that we apply to everyday life, and generalize that into a greater context.

Take for example, a book shelf made from bricks and boards. This was very common for young people and students at one time. On either end a few bricks are stacked and they hold up wood boards, to make shelves.

Anyway, the application of sunyata is in the fact that ordinarily, people classify bricks and boards as building supplies. In general, people classify things as having an intrinsically existing classification. So, a very close-minded person might say, “you can’t make a book shelf out of that. That’s for making a brick building!” Such a person can’t see the sunyata of those bricks and boards. They only see the classification “building construction material” and cling to that.

But understanding sunyata means we know there is no intrinsic “shelf-ness” in a bookshelf. There is only the interaction of vertical and horizontal structure. Anything that is flat and horizontal, that can be supported on either end can be a book shelf. Or it can be a Buddhist altar. Or if it’s big enough, a table of even a bed. Even just the brick can also be a door-stop or a paperweight.

Understanding sunyata means understanding that everything lacks an intrinsic function. It may have been designed with a specific function in mind, but ‘in mind’ is the point here. In the mind of someone else, it has a different function. Objects lack their own intrinsic function.

It’s because things are “empty” of any intrinsic reality that they can be used in different ways. We only label things with this or that imaginary classification. Outside of the labels and classifications we create in our imaginations, things don’t have any specific reality. For those who grasp this, the world becomes flexible, with infinite possibilities.

We probably all know someone who is so rigid in their thinking that they can’t possibly ‘think outside the box’. Others come up with all sorts of new uses for things, and people say “that person is so creative!”

In terms of practice, meditation on sunyata leads to less grasping and attachment. If everything can be anything, the then as soon as you hold on to something, you limit yourself.

And to the same degree that you limit and classify the world around you, that is the exact degree to which you limit yourself, because attachment to classification is an outward expression of self-grasping. The two arise simultaneously.

I think that in ordinary life, most people employ the principle of sunyata without calling it that. Any of the “life hacks” that people share on the internet, where you use an object for some purpose other than for what it was designed, is applying sunyata.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
ject
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:52 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by ject »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am ... world if it and us are empty?
Would it make more sense if instead of just saying "empty", you say "intrinsically empty" or something along those lines?
In other words, if you will, everything around us (in the universe as we think we know it) only exists because it has been made/formed out of or by something else.
A mountain is formed by clashing landmasses, landmass wont exist if planet was not formed, planet wont exist if the star it orbits was... and so on and on.
And of course, none of it is permanent.

Big difference from a word "empty" used in "this cup is empty".
User avatar
ThreeVows
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by ThreeVows »

ject wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:06 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am ... world if it and us are empty?
Would it make more sense if instead of just saying "empty", you say "intrinsically empty" or something along those lines?
In other words, if you will, everything around us (in the universe as we think we know it) only exists because it has been made/formed out of or by something else.
A mountain is formed by clashing landmasses, landmass wont exist if planet was not formed, planet wont exist if the star it orbits was... and so on and on.
And of course, none of it is permanent.

Big difference from a word "empty" used in "this cup is empty".
This is still generally a realist view in that there is a fundamental substance considered to be 'real'.

Generally speaking to understand emptiness, you have to understand dependent origination, aka the 12 nidanas. Which basically put relate to how beings acquire a bodymind related to their karma, and secondary to the bodymind, there is the experience of being embodied in a world, and this embodiment in a world is then thought to be 'reality'. But actually all of it arises secondary to the 12 nidanas, every phenomenon that is perceived/conceived.

There is maybe some use to such analysis as you said, but it still is reducible to some existent substance.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

ject wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:06 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:23 am ... world if it and us are empty?
Big difference from a word "empty" used in "this cup is empty".
This is the most important point.
It doesn’t mean hollow or vacant.

Also, some people misunderstand Buddhist non- attached to mean cultivating an emotionless feeling of “emptiness” inside. That’s a totally wrong interpretation of “emptiness”.

It’s more akin to “being without”.
Then the question is, “without what?” And this is also an important point, because sunyata isn’t an abstract state of ‘non-existence’. Emptiness can only be applies to objects, to describe their ‘being without’ intrinsic existence or ‘self-ness’ or some kind of essence that would still reside once the parts of the object were removed. So, there’s no “table essence” that holds the parts of a table together. Likewise, there is no separate “self” that experiences the components and aspects of human existence as the objects of some awareness that “it” possesses. “It” is simply the experience of awareness.

In Hindi (and probably Sanskrit) the word for “zero” is shuni and in Nepali it is sunya or shunya.

The word sunyata is pronounced like shunyta but with a very soft SH sound. So, the word has the implication of ‘zero’ but not of minus-zero. It’s like having some land on which no house is standing. That’s zero. But it’s not like there’s a hole in the ground, where the ground is missing, so there’s an “empty” thing going on. Sunyata doesn’t mean ‘lacking’ in that sense.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
stong gzugs
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:48 pm We probably all know someone who is so rigid in their thinking that they can’t possibly ‘think outside the box’. Others come up with all sorts of new uses for things, and people say “that person is so creative!”
I really like this linking between emptiness and creativity! Neat connection.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:33 pm In Hindi (and probably Sanskrit) the word for “zero” is shuni and in Nepali it is sunya or shunya.

The word sunyata is pronounced like shunyta but with a very soft SH sound. So, the word has the implication of ‘zero’ but not of minus-zero. It’s like having some land on which no house is standing. That’s zero. But it’s not like there’s a hole in the ground, where the ground is missing, so there’s an “empty” thing going on. Sunyata doesn’t mean ‘lacking’ in that sense.
Yep! It's śūnya (शून्य) in Hindi and Sanskrit. The "sh" sound comes from the back of your throat, like how you'd say shill, shoe, or Shiva.

Fun fact: the word "zero" is comes from the Arabic ṣifr which was how they translated śūnya.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:33 pm And this is also an important point, because sunyata isn’t an abstract state of ‘non-existence’. Emptiness can only be applies to objects, to describe their ‘being without’ intrinsic existence or ‘self-ness’ or some kind of essence that would still reside once the parts of the object were removed.
It depends who you ask! The whole "emptiness is only about objects" mantra is a historical byproduct of Gelukpa political control in Tibet. Case in point: if you ask the Buddha Shakyamuni, emptiness absolutely is an abstract state in which you can dwell. In fact, dwelling in emptiness was probably his most common meditation practice. Check out the Cūḷasuññatasutta for instructions on how to dwell in emptiness and you can see how emptiness is fully realized without any reference to objects. It's actually one of the most profound practices I've seen in the early canon. Here's just a teaser:
“At one time the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyans, in a town of the Sakyans named Nagaraka. At that time I heard the Blessed One speak like this: ‘Ānanda, I often dwell in emptiness.’ Did I understand well, receive well, and remember well that saying by the Blessed One?”

Then the Blessed One replied: “Ānanda, you truly understood well, received well, and remembered well that saying by me. Why is that? From then until now, I often dwell in emptiness ... Ānanda, whatever is not present, I therefore see as empty; and whatever else is present, I see as truly present. Ānanda, this is called truly dwelling in emptiness, without distortion.
Kai lord
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Kai lord »

Buddhism has creativity in its core alright, its codenamed as "Skillful means" :tongue:

Anyway, here's a wonderful and relevant zen story from a Chinese Ch’an master Qingyuan Weixin:
“Before I had studied Ch’an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance, I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.”
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:33 pm
“At one time the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyans, in a town of the Sakyans named Nagaraka. At that time I heard the Blessed One speak like this: ‘Ānanda, I often dwell in emptiness.’ Did I understand well, receive well, and remember well that saying by the Blessed One?”

Then the Blessed One replied: “Ānanda, you truly understood well, received well, and remembered well that saying by me. Why is that? From then until now, I often dwell in emptiness ... Ānanda, whatever is not present, I therefore see as empty; and whatever else is present, I see as truly present. Ānanda, this is called truly dwelling in emptiness, without distortion.
That's not the whole story here, that emptiness is also implicitly dependent on an object, from the same sutta, in this case wilderness on up to the six āyatanas absent of affliction, desire for birth, and ignorance:

Consider this stilt longhouse of Migāra’s mother. It’s empty of elephants, cows, horses, and mares; of gold and money; and of gatherings of men and women. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely, the oneness dependent on the mendicant Saṅgha. In the same way, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of the village and the perception of people—focuses on the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness. Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that perception of wilderness. They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the perception of village or the perception of people. There is only this modicum of stress, namely the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the village. It is empty of the perception of people. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure...They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujat ... ript=latin

This is not an ontological statement, it is a mere observation that even when the all afflictions cease, there is still a body in samsara, until the aggregates break up.
stong gzugs
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:46 pm That's not the whole story here, that emptiness is also implicitly dependent on an object, from the same sutta, in this case wilderness on up to the six āyatanas absent of affliction, desire for birth, and ignorance:
That's why I specified about how emptiness is fully realized (i.e., at the end of the practice, not how it starts out). You're correct in that the practice does start out with contemplating the emptiness of objects like the village in the forest (where one has left the village and gone to the forest for renunciation), the earth in the forest, etc.* But when you get to the later stages, especially the seventh stage of signlessness, then emptiness is literally the absence of any characteristics that one could hold onto as an object, and by the final stage, not even the experience of emptiness itself is objectified: one just dwells in emptiness without any grasping. And, whereas some of these later stages were taught by pre-Buddhist teachers, it's that final non-grasping of emptiness as an object that leads to final liberation. So you finish by dwelling in emptiness that is independent of any object.

*It's also worth noting here that even these early stages aren't about the inherent emptiness of x (svabhāvaśūnyatā), but about the extrinsic emptiness of x as being empty of y (parabhāvaśūnyatā). The Buddha just beautifully stacks it progressively, so that x is empty of y, but w is empty of x, and v is empty of w, and so on. So this is a core practice of the Buddha himself that he says clearly leads to final liberation through emptiness that doesn't fit within the Mādhyamaka-type understanding of emptiness popularized in Tibet.
natusake
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 8:20 pm

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by natusake »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:25 pm It's also worth noting here that even these early stages aren't about the inherent emptiness of x (svabhāvaśūnyatā), but about the extrinsic emptiness of x as being empty of y (parabhāvaśūnyatā).
Why would the two be mutually exclusive?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9439
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

stong gzugs wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:33 pm The whole "emptiness is only about objects" mantra is a historical byproduct of Gelukpa political control in Tibet.
Hah! Very good! As a matter of fact, I was drawing my comment from a teaching given by HHDL.

But I would have to suggest that “dwelling in emptiness” as a meditative experience would have to be dwelling in the direct realization of the emptiness of all phenomena, and not just an intellectual grasping of emptiness.
It’s like if a Buddha sits and perceives himself and everything directly and clearly as the vast space between atoms. There’s still emptiness built upon something. if there were nothing, what could one dwell in?

The experience, as you say, is fully, truly one of residing in emptiness, without reference points, etc. The experience is not what is in question. It’s that the emptiness one is fully dwelling in isn’t something that exists without an object.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Wed May 24, 2023 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”