Western Philosophy and emptiness

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krodha
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by krodha »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:55 am If you think that she is implying that Candra is hinting at an ineffable experience, I disagree with her. If you think she is implying that gnosis is ineffable, I agree with her.

The problem here is the lack of definition of “experience.”
Very helpful clarification, thanks. I think PadmaVonSamba below raises some good points, which I build upon.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:47 pm How do you know they have no characteristics I’d they aren’t experienced?
This is a great point, PadmaVonSamba! Here are some questions that might clarify what's at stake here:

If jñana is defined in terms of a consciousness that doesn't arise because its support-object has no signs, per Cāndrakīrti, that's basically what happens in dreamless deep sleep. In deep sleep, there are no signs (unlike in waking life or during dreams) to serve as object-supports and no consciousness arises. But we are typically also unaware: there is no experience of deep sleep, which is why we only infer that we were in deep sleep after we wake up from it. In contrast, when we practice night yogas, we can maintain awareness even as we drift from waking life into the dream-world and the dream-world dissolves into deep sleep, such that deep sleep can be experienced. There still is no positive sign to serve as a support-object for consciousness, but one still remains aware and experiencing. So, which of these are more analogous to jñana as you and Cāndrakīrti define it?

Further, how does resting in the non-arising of consciousness cultivate positive qualities to benefit others? If the non-arising of consciousness, without being aware of it, was helpful in this way, couldn't you put people under a medically-induced coma and they'd come out as better people? If not, then doesn't this imply that one must maintain awareness and experience the non-arising of consciousness to produce benefits? Such that awareness and experience can persist in the absence of (dualistic) consciousness?
Jñāna is the luminosity of the mind, fully active and engaged, not an unconscious state.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Kai lord »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:56 pm If jñana is defined in terms of a consciousness that doesn't arise because its support-object has no signs, per Cāndrakīrti, that's basically what happens in dreamless deep sleep. In deep sleep, there are no signs (unlike in waking life or during dreams) to serve as object-supports and no consciousness arises. But we are typically also unaware: there is no experience of deep sleep, which is why we only infer that we were in deep sleep after we wake up from it. In contrast, when we practice night yogas, we can maintain awareness even as we drift from waking life into the dream-world and the dream-world dissolves into deep sleep, such that deep sleep can be experienced. There still is no positive sign to serve as a support-object for consciousness, but one still remains aware and experiencing. So, which of these are more analogous to jñana as you and Cāndrakīrti define it?

Further, how does resting in the non-arising of consciousness cultivate positive qualities to benefit others? If the non-arising of consciousness, without being aware of it, was helpful in this way, couldn't you put people under a medically-induced coma and they'd come out as better people? If not, then doesn't this imply that one must maintain awareness and experience the non-arising of consciousness to produce benefits? Such that awareness and experience can persist in the absence of (dualistic) consciousness?
Gelug Prasangika's solution to that is the jñāna dharmakāya, the wisdom of the Buddha that together with svābhāvakāya (dharmadhatu) represents the union of the two truths or method & wisdom. Since jñāna dharmakāya is relative, like the other two rupa kayas, its also subject to dependent arising and hence requires accumulation of merit, wisdom and bodhicitta to build up.

Of course, this is uniquely Gelug presentation. The rest don't agree with them on that.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:00 pm
Rendawa's Jewel Lamp, 340-341 wrote:According to the tradition of this tantra, the classification of the two truths is like this: all the phenomena of the incidental stains that arise from the confusing circumstances of ignorance are relative truth, because they obscure the perception of thatness and are reference points for total affliction. Because that is also not established as the object of a perfect primordial awareness, it is empty of self-nature, a nihilistic emptiness, and an inanimate emptiness. All the phenomena of luminosity, the nature of original mind, are absolute truth. And not because it has been proven able to withstand reasoned analysis ... It is the absolute because it is a nonconceptual field of experience. Because the incidental stains are absent, it is empty of other, and because it is experienced through a discriminating self-awareness, it is not a nihilistic emptiness and an inanimate emptiness ...

Because the emptiness of self-nature falls into the extreme of nihilism, its realization is not the perfect path of liberation; only the emptiness of other, the true nature of mind, luminosity, an immutable inner pure awareness experienced through the force of meditation and through a discriminating self-awareness, is accepted as the perfect path
First of all, as I have explained to you many timses, the spros bral tradition, the classical tradition of Madhyamaka in India and Tibet (as opposed to yogacārins who merely claim to madhyamakas but cling to a real basis) is not a rang stong school.

Back to Rendawa, there is nothing novel about saying that the nature of the mind has never been affected by taints from the very beginning. His whole thrust is distinguishing mind from the nature of the mind, he says, when discussing the cause tantra on page 333, quotes the Bhadrapāla śreṣṭhi paripṛcchā sūtra:

Just as sun rays are not affected by the taints of bad odor, pollution, or even fallen corpses, the sun is free of bad smell without going somewhere else. Likewise, the element of consciousness [vijñānadhātu] is born in wombs of dogs and pigs, who eat shit and garbage, nevertheless, the element of consciousness is never affected by that inferior behavior."

It is perfectly acceptable to say that the mind is devoid of adventitious afflictions, the Buddha states it clearly in the Pabhassara Sutta. It that is all one is confining one's definition extrinsic emptiness to, this is not a source of fault.

The issue we run into is when we begin to define gnosis as ultimate. So does Rendawa really define gnosis as ultimate in the sense of being substantially different from consciousness? Rendawa, in the passage you cite says:

The two truths presented by the tradition of this tantra are as follows: All the adventitious, impure phenomena produced from the deluded condition of ignorance are obscurations to seeing reality (tattva, de kho na nyid), and because they are the support (ālambana) of affliction, they are relative truth. Because they also are not established as the objects of true gnosis (samyakjñāna), they are intrinsically empty, emptiness of annihilation, and an inert emptiness.

This all makes sense because the point being made here is that the emptiness of the mind itself is not inert, but afflictions and so on, which actually do not exist as such, are indeed empty in the way he describes them.

All the phenomena of luminosity of the fundamental mind (gnyug ma sems) are are ultimate truth. It is not because it can bear analysis through reasoning...

This is where Rendawa and Jonang part ways. He is not claiming that, in the parlance of the Geluk school, the fundamental mind of clear light can withstand analysis. He is making an entirely different point. What's his point: He cites the Abhidharmasammucaya on this score:

Why is [suchness] called "ultimate?" Because the ultimate is the domain of gnosis.

Rendawa continues:

As it says, it because it is the domain of the nonconceptual [gnosis], [the luminosity of the fundamental mind] is ultimate, and because it is devoid of adventitious stains, it is empty of other. Because it must be experienced in the manner of individual, personal knowledge (so so rang rig, pratyātma+vit), it is neither an annhilationist emptiness nor an inert emptiness.

It is incisive here that Rendawa makes the distinction the fundamental mind of luminosity cannot bear analysis. He does state that it is the domain of the gnosis that must be personally known (so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes).

If one is familiar with Sakya works, one also finds Sapan making an observation in Treasury of Reasoning that partless moments are ultimate, and cannot be refuted by madhyamaka reasons. Why? Because madhyamaka only refutes moments with arising, abiding, and cessation. It has no arguments for dealing with partless moments. He also makes a distinction between an ultimate of freedom from extremes and an ultimate of reduction, with these partless moments belonging to the latter. We see the same move here. When reduced, the mind is empty of extraneous taints, as the Buddha states, so no one can argue with this. No one believes that afflictions are inherent to the mind. What Rendawa does not say is that this fundamental mind exists or is permanent, which is the error in which the Jonang seemingly fall, thus the charge of being crypto-Hindus. On page 332 he offers this refutation:

Here, others say, "The basis of purification, suchness with taints, and the result of purification, the vajrakāya, are inseparable in the manner of [one, the result] pervading [the other, the basis], once those are grasped to be the same, the inseparable basis and result are asserted to be permanent, stable, and the same This is totally deluded. The permanent cannot be contaminated by the condition of adventitious impurities, and due to this, also also the path will not be able to make the tainted untainted, because the permanent is unchanging.

The part in red I understand to be Rendawa's continued rejection of the Jonang perspective. So, frankly, I understand his "gzhan stong" to be rather different than yours, the so-called "white" gzhan stong mentioned by HHDL, as opposed to "black" gzhan stong.
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Malcolm
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

krodha wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:17 pm
Candrakīrti concurs in his Madhyamakāvatāra:
  • The absence of all characteristics is peace.
And we might add, from the MAV:



Since all the dry wood of objects of knowledge are burned up,
that peace is the dharmakāya of the victors,
at that time there neither arising nor cessation—
the cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya.


Candra comments on this:


Since the kāya that possesses the nature of gnosis burns all the dry wood of objects of knowledge, since objects of knowledge do not arise, that which possess this nonarising is the dharmakāya of the buddhas. As it is said:

From this perspective
the buddhas see suchness,
the guides are the dharmakāya,
dharmatā is not an object of knowledge,
that cannot be known.

This dharmakāya neither arises nor ceases at that time. From this point of view, Mañjuśrī, this "neither arising nor ceasing" is nominal designation for the tathāgata."

That being the case, the relative presentation is that only the kāya can directly perceive the object of gnosis, reality, since the mind and mental factors can never engage that as a perceiving subject at all.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

krodha wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:25 pm Jñāna is the luminosity of the mind, fully active and engaged, not an unconscious state.
Tell me more about it actually looks like for luminous mind to be "fully active and engaged", without any arising of consciousness or object-supports. What is "active"? What is it "engaged" with?
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:05 pm The part in red I understand to be Rendawa's continued rejection of the Jonang perspective. So, frankly, I understand his "gzhan stong" to be rather different than yours, the so-called "white" gzhan stong mentioned by HHDL, as opposed to "black" gzhan stong.
In my pot-stirring comment, I didn't say Rendawa became a Jonangpa, which he didn't, just that he changed his tune from the stringent polemics of his 20s as he matured, which he did. As his final Kālacakra text, which I quoted above, shows, he came to accept some aspects of the gzhanstong view, and not others. And, obviously, as much as I respect HHDL, I don't rely on his labels for white vs. black gzhanstong, his claims about the reincarnation lineage of Tāranātha, or even his approach to prasangika, where his object of negation, following Tsongkhapa, I don't find to be in line even with Cāndrakīrti, among other things.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:56 pm If jñana is defined in terms of a consciousness that doesn't arise because its support-object has no signs, per Cāndrakīrti,
What no longer arises is the mind and mental factors. Gnosis sees suchness. This is not a mind since it is not conceptual. This is also not inert, since it is characterized by clarity. It is ultimate in the sense that its object is ultimate, but it is relative in that it exists in a continuum. Since it is free of afflictions, it is beyond birth and death. But its activity is effortless and not connected with conceptual signs, which both Candra and Maitreyanātha agree on. As far as qualities go, as I have mentioned before, it is not necessary to have truly existing kāyas and wisdoms in the basis in order for the result to manifest qualities of the kāyas and wisdoms. The recognition of reality itself produces these qualities spontaneously. They are not newly created in the sense that they are fabricated; but rather, they are emergent properties of buddhahood, which cannot be inferred from observing sentient beings in their present state. Buddhas, of course see the actual potential of sentient beings, but statements that the buddha-qualities, such as eighteen unshared qualities and so on, exist in sentient beings, cannot be taken literally. But of course, once reality is realized through the personally realized gnosis that arises in equipoise, these qualities naturally emerge, because any being with a mind has the potential to manifest these qualities. For example, no one says that flowers exist in the ground fully formed. But no one denies that seeds exist in the ground. When these seeds meet the spring rain, by July all the flowers are in bloom. Likewise, the minds of sentient beings have the potential to realize reality—if you like the fundamental mind of luminosity, vidyā, etc.—and when they do, they bring forth an abundance of qualities, just as the Buddha has stated. But to take literally the idea that all these qualities exist fully expressed in sentient beings at the time of the basis is a pretty foolish position, since it is obviously the case that sentient beings are not omniscient, do not have the eighteen unshared qualities, and so on.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:58 pm
krodha wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:25 pm Jñāna is the luminosity of the mind, fully active and engaged, not an unconscious state.
Tell me more about it actually looks like for luminous mind to be "fully active and engaged", without any arising of consciousness or object-supports. What is "active"? What is it "engaged" with?
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:05 pm The part in red I understand to be Rendawa's continued rejection of the Jonang perspective. So, frankly, I understand his "gzhan stong" to be rather different than yours, the so-called "white" gzhan stong mentioned by HHDL, as opposed to "black" gzhan stong.
As his final Kālacakra text, which I quoted above, shows, he came to accept some aspects of the gzhanstong view, and not others.
The part in red comes from the text you quoted, his final Kalacakra text, the Jewel Lamp. That's why I gave you the page numbers. He is clearly correcting the incorrect usage of the term "gzhan stong," but it is not that profound in the sense that what he is saying is novel.

The point I am making is that he never accepted gzhan stong view, because it is trivial to say that the afflictions are not inherent to the mind, i.e., that the mind is inherently empty of afflictions, but not empty of its own purity, aka, luminosity. That's the point of his citation about sunrays, that they are inherently pure no matter what they fall on. Luminosity, in sūtra, is just a metaphor for purity. Unforunately, some people take this for being a substantial quality of the mind, and like you, confuse this with the notion that lamps illuminate themselves. Lamps cannot illuminate themselves, because there is no darkness in a lamp to remove.

Of course this is different in various tantric perspectives, where there is an understanding about how the radiance of this fundamental mind functions with the nadis, vayus, and bindus of the body and can be employed on the path.

It's also trivial to say that purity has infinite qualities, but some people out of a zeal born of literalism really do get too carried away.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:40 am
As to your second, Dudjom Rinpoche to John Giorno…

I mean whatever skillful means Dudjom Rinpoche was employing there, I’m just speaking in general in regard to my previous post.
Dudjom Rinpoche was saying that gay men could practice union yogas with each other. This is pretty widely understood in the Dudjom Tersar community. After all, the rectum is a branch of the central channel.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

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Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:05 pm

Well who knows.

It doesn’t pertain to me, and I’m not really an Dudjom lineage guy so much anyway; therefore whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

One thing though: There’s no precedent for that in any Root Tantra; and JLA even confirmed this to me in a personal email (who is obviously more than capable of searching TBRC etc. thoroughly).
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:08 pm
Well who knows.

It doesn’t pertain to me, and I’m not really an Dudjom lineage guy so much anyway; therefore whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

One thing though: There’s no precedent for that in any Root Tantra; and JLA even confirmed this to me in a personal email (who is obviously more than capable of searching TBRC etc. thoroughly).
In some treasure cycles, in accordance with the Ati style of effortlessness, one can even practice those yogas without a partner. :D
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:47 pm

What I said above also includes legitimate Termas. Although some people have different criteria for determining “legit” here.

I personally have confidence in ChNNR’s Longsal, and also in Bönpo Termas (yet not “Aro” for example).

In any case, it seems that you’re referring to Jnanamudra, perhaps also in tandem with (a) variation(s) of Vajroli Mudra?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Kai lord wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:47 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:08 pm
Well who knows.

It doesn’t pertain to me, and I’m not really an Dudjom lineage guy so much anyway; therefore whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

One thing though: There’s no precedent for that in any Root Tantra; and JLA even confirmed this to me in a personal email (who is obviously more than capable of searching TBRC etc. thoroughly).
In some treasure cycles, in accordance with the Ati style of effortlessness, one can even practice those yogas without a partner. :D
The so called right hand path. :spy:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:47 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:08 pm
Well who knows.

It doesn’t pertain to me, and I’m not really an Dudjom lineage guy so much anyway; therefore whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

One thing though: There’s no precedent for that in any Root Tantra; and JLA even confirmed this to me in a personal email (who is obviously more than capable of searching TBRC etc. thoroughly).
In some treasure cycles, in accordance with the Ati style of effortlessness, one can even practice those yogas without a partner. :D
The old hastimūdra (yes, this is a real term, much to the consternation of the anti-fap movement). As they say, the yogi's best friend is his hand.
The so called right hand path. :spy:
Some people are lefties.

This thread went downhill fast... :rolling:
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

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Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:15 pmThis thread went downhill fast... :rolling:

I ain’t even trippin’ though :jumping:

Looking up Hastimūdra now, and it seems that even though that’s a real term, it’s also not a formal term for what we’re specifically discussing here; but rather a kind of joke that you made.

But yea, what I said in my previous above post
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by krodha »

Don’t forget the rare ambidextrous yogis.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

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Is there not a middle way?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

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natusake wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 pm Is there not a middle way?

How couldn't there be?

What are you referring to specifically though?
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:29 pm but rather a kind of joke that you made.
Not, it is a real term. You can find it in my translation of the Sakya Lamdre material, forthcoming in August. I was joking, but I was also serious.
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

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natusake wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 pm Is there not a middle way?
Indeed there is. My middle name happens to be Bob. :thumbsup:
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Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:07 pm Not, it is a real term.
Nāropa in his commentary on verse 77-78 of the Sekoddeśa (on the dharana branch of the sadangayoga) uses the term "lotus of the hand" describing the same sort of act, in order to prevent the moon from escaping. Any clue what the Sanskrit equivalent might be for this?
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm What no longer arises is the mind and mental factors. Gnosis sees suchness. This is not a mind since it is not conceptual. This is also not inert, since it is characterized by clarity. It is ultimate in the sense that its object is ultimate, but it is relative in that it exists in a continuum. Since it is free of afflictions, it is beyond birth and death.
How precisely does gnosis "see" anything? You before said that any such seeing/witnessing/awareness would axiomatically have to fall within the 18 dhatus or contradict the buddha's teaching. Why is gnosis an exception, other than because it is defined as such? You say gnosis is ineffable, and like Cāndrakīrti deny that it is a mere absence of experience but provide little actual explanation of the phenomenological contours of gnosis, all while describing others who say similar things as hiding behind "apophatic mysticism." You say gnosis sees suchness, but don't you define suchness as emptiness that is a non-implicative negation, which would mean there's nothing to "see" (i.e., certainly no nimittas or any sort of non-conceptual yogic direct perceptions like the śunyatā-bimba)?

You further say that the buddha qualities spontaneously arise from resting in gnosis, but that doesn't logically follow. To be sure, afflictions and obscurations will fade away from gnosis, but there's no logical reason that positive buddha qualities would follow and spontaneously emerge. This argument linking emptiness with positive qualities, perhaps made most famously by Shantideva, is known to, at best, establish the sort of emptiness you're describing as a necessary but insufficient condition for these qualities to arise, but it is certainly not sufficient. Clearing away obscurations doesn't imply the emergence of these qualities unless you presume that these qualities are inherent.

You also rely selectively on some of the metaphors for buddha nature that presume the need for these qualities to be developed, like seeds, but even mature Rendawa sang a dōha using the other metaphors, where they are already fully-formed and only need to be uncovered:
Rendawa wrote:Therefore, seeing our own mind, this inseparability of being aware and empty,
To exist in all sentient beings in a pervasive manner,
Through examples such as a treasure below the earth and the womb of a pregnant woman,
[Maitreya] declared that all beings are endowed with the tathāgata heart.
Let's put aside for now your qualms about fully-formed buddha qualities. I've already explained multiple times how you're misreading Dölpopa's model of the natural and developmental lineages and separative and produced effects. We can get into this later.
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