Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Dawa Ösel
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Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dawa Ösel »

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Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 3:33 am
michaelb wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, you just need to receive direct introduction.
What do you mean by "direct introduction", what term are you translating here? I assume you would also need lung and tri?

I suppose I'm wondering what the difference between nam mkha'i sgo 'byed, ngo sprod spras pa and rig pa'i rtsal dbang is.

Just to add, I think it's quite a Longchen Nyingthig thing to receive empowerments and that rather than just rely on direct introduction(?)
This particular chod is grounded in Dzogchen. All you need to practice this chod is direct introduction, ala, first phrase of Garab Dorje.

Of course you also need the lung for the practice, but you certainly do not need to receive any kind of empowerment, including "the opening of the sky door." Having said that, it is not a fault to receive Dechen Gyalmo, etc. It just isn't necessary.

This of course has a lot to do with a difference in perspective about empowerments from an Ati point of view and a Maha or Anuyoga point of view.
Sorry for diggi this up, found it through google :)

So, do i understand this correct, that if you have recived the direct introduction one would only need a lung for the
"laughter of the dakinis" practice to actullay do this practice?

Sorry for dubble checking, i just want to be sure about that
Passing By
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Passing By »

On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?
Malcolm
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Malcolm »

Dawa Ösel wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:58 am
Sorry for diggi this up, found it through google :)

So, do i understand this correct, that if you have recived the direct introduction one would only need a lung for the
"laughter of the dakinis" practice to actullay do this practice?

Sorry for dubble checking, i just want to be sure about that
Correct.
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heart
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by heart »

Dawa Ösel wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:58 am Mod note: This topic has been split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p139390
Please don't dig up old topics. Get familiar with our Terms of Service. Thanks.


Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 3:33 am
michaelb wrote:What do you mean by "direct introduction", what term are you translating here? I assume you would also need lung and tri?

I suppose I'm wondering what the difference between nam mkha'i sgo 'byed, ngo sprod spras pa and rig pa'i rtsal dbang is.

Just to add, I think it's quite a Longchen Nyingthig thing to receive empowerments and that rather than just rely on direct introduction(?)
This particular chod is grounded in Dzogchen. All you need to practice this chod is direct introduction, ala, first phrase of Garab Dorje.

Of course you also need the lung for the practice, but you certainly do not need to receive any kind of empowerment, including "the opening of the sky door." Having said that, it is not a fault to receive Dechen Gyalmo, etc. It just isn't necessary.

This of course has a lot to do with a difference in perspective about empowerments from an Ati point of view and a Maha or Anuyoga point of view.
Sorry for diggi this up, found it through google :)

So, do i understand this correct, that if you have recived the direct introduction one would only need a lung for the
"laughter of the dakinis" practice to actullay do this practice?

Sorry for dubble checking, i just want to be sure about that
There is no empowerment in the Longchen Nyingtik for the "laughter of dakinis". So you need only "lung" and "tri".
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Dawa Ösel
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dawa Ösel »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:40 pm Correct.
heart wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:42 pm There is no empowerment in the Longchen Nyingtik for the "laughter of dakinis". So you need only "lung" and "tri".
Thank you bothe
Malcolm
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?
In meaning, nothing. In tradition, one is the system of Jigling; the other, the system of Dudjom.
Passing By
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:10 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?
In meaning, nothing. In tradition, one is the system of Jigling; the other, the system of Dudjom.
Thanks. BTW are they both considered wrathful practices like Kilaya or is such classification not really applicable?
Dharmasagara
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dharmasagara »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?
One could probably say that the Laughter of the Dakinis in Longchen Nyingthig is a stand-alone practice, whereas within Düdjom Tersar Chöd is embedded in an entire cycle of practices, centering on the deity Thröma Nagmo.

There seem in fact different approaches to whether or not on would require the Thröma (deity) empowerment for the Chöd practice that is called the Thröma Chöd.

What I have heard from my lama, in the upper Thröma tradition (Thölug) the empowerment/ Thröma deity practice was rather given as an enhancement, once after the Thröma preliminaries one had received the pointing out instructions and done some Chöd practice in the wild.

Lamas in the more widespread lower tradition via HH Düdjom Rinpoche Jigdräl Yeshe Dorje seem to give the deity empowerment right away at the start, even before the Thröma Ngöndro.
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasagara wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:39 pm
There seem in fact different approaches to whether or not on would require the Thröma (deity) empowerment for the Chöd practice that is called the Thröma Chöd.
Sangye Khandro teaches the Troma Chod widely to people who do not have the empowerment.
Passing By
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Passing By »

Dharmasagara wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:39 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?
One could probably say that the Laughter of the Dakinis in Longchen Nyingthig is a stand-alone practice, whereas within Düdjom Tersar Chöd is embedded in an entire cycle of practices, centering on the deity Thröma Nagmo.

There seem in fact different approaches to whether or not on would require the Thröma (deity) empowerment for the Chöd practice that is called the Thröma Chöd.

What I have heard from my lama, in the upper Thröma tradition (Thölug) the empowerment/ Thröma deity practice was rather given as an enhancement, once after the Thröma preliminaries one had received the pointing out instructions and done some Chöd practice in the wild.

Lamas in the more widespread lower tradition via HH Düdjom Rinpoche Jigdräl Yeshe Dorje seem to give the deity empowerment right away at the start, even before the Thröma Ngöndro.
The actual Trekcho/Thogal portions do require the empowerment though, no?
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dharmasagara »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm The actual Trekcho/Thogal portions do require the empowerment though, no?
Within Thröma the whole story is a little bit trickier.

The Chöd section (including the Ngöndro, the instructions on mind and Chöd) were all part of Düdjom Lingpa's initial vision of Saraha (written down as the root text of that cycle, called the Saraha Nyingthig). In that there is no empowerment, just the instructions on mind.

The Thröma empowerment, which was revealed later, is a standard fourfold deity empowerment in connection with Thröma deity practice. More specifically, as the fourth Word empowerment is the empowerment into Ati (threkchö, thögäl), so yes it would be probably needed, at least for the thögäl part.

But, to all I have heard so far, anyway Thröma thögäl is completely out of reach without going through the whole cycle first (Ngöndro, deity, Chöd power places).
Malcolm
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasagara wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:11 pm
But, to all I have heard so far, anyway Thröma thögäl is completely out of reach without going through the whole cycle first (Ngöndro, deity, Chöd power places).
That is not necessarily the case, actually.
Passing By
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Passing By »

Dharmasagara wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:11 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:54 pm The actual Trekcho/Thogal portions do require the empowerment though, no?
Within Thröma the whole story is a little bit trickier.

The Chöd section (including the Ngöndro, the instructions on mind and Chöd) were all part of Düdjom Lingpa's initial vision of Saraha (written down as the root text of that cycle, called the Saraha Nyingthig). In that there is no empowerment, just the instructions on mind.

The Thröma empowerment, which was revealed later, is a standard fourfold deity empowerment in connection with Thröma deity practice. More specifically, as the fourth Word empowerment is the empowerment into Ati (threkchö, thögäl), so yes it would be probably needed, at least for the thögäl part.

But, to all I have heard so far, anyway Thröma thögäl is completely out of reach without going through the whole cycle first (Ngöndro, deity, Chöd power places).
Well, the two principal texts from the Chonyi Namkhai Longdzo dealing with Troma thogal do also have a good amount of trekcho and guru yoga instructions...
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yagmort
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by yagmort »

Dharmasagara wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:11 pm ... Thröma thögäl is completely out of reach ...
when you say Thröma thögal do you mean heartblood of the thousand dakinis?
what about nelug rangjung?
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Dawa Ösel
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dawa Ösel »

Why is chöd such a rabbithole? :cry: maybe i'll just stick with trekchö...
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Soma999 »

It is not complicated, chod is not a rabbit hole at all. But practitionners can complicate everything and tie knots in their brain.

I did a laugher of the dakini retreat, the lung were given, that’s all. And the practice went well.
Dawa Ösel
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dawa Ösel »

Could the Kusulu Body-Offering Part from the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro also be practided as a kind of short "stand-alone" chöd shadana, with just the Direct Introduction recived?
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

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Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:33 am Could the Kusulu Body-Offering Part from the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro also be practided as a kind of short "stand-alone" chöd shadana, with just the Direct Introduction recived?
Of course, you just need the lung.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Dawa Ösel
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

Post by Dawa Ösel »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:18 pm
Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:33 am Could the Kusulu Body-Offering Part from the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro also be practided as a kind of short "stand-alone" chöd shadana, with just the Direct Introduction recived?
Of course, you just need the lung.
Well, that's nice to hear.

Thank you
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Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice

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Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:33 am Could the Kusulu Body-Offering Part from the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro also be practided as a kind of short "stand-alone" chöd shadana, with just the Direct Introduction recived?
This is the way most people initially approach it, actually.
For the Dudjom system of Throma, it's more of a corpus of teachings and practices.

Slightly off-topic, but in Kagyu traditions we practice LuJin daily, picking it up as a daily recitation at the time one starts the Mandala Offering of Ngondro. the Lujin is a very condensed method of the essential parts of Machig's tradition, but in retreat people do the "All Day" extensive liturgies of Tsokley Trengwa or Rinchen Kun Jung near the end of a three year retreat, as Drupchos.
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