No guru, no dzogchen?

Terma
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Terma »

ject wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 8:47 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

.... If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.
I honestly cant see the point having one like that.
In Dzogchen, receiving direct introduction, pointing out instruction amd transmission is only the beginning. Absolutely essential, but from that point on in my opinion it is crucial to have personal instruction as we progress. We need someone who understands the experiences we might have and can guide us based upon that. I think so many people get stuck without realising it because do not have the guidance to get past it.

But even a quick zoom meeting every so often goes a long, long way. I can't really see the point in just trying to go it alone and think one can avoid all the pitfalls. I don't think this is possible.
PeterC
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

ject wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 8:47 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

.... If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.
I honestly cant see the point having one like that.
There are always important texts that you need to receive teachings on, and you want to get those teachings from the most experience teachers possible: it's usually not practical that those are the *same* teachers who will give you individual advice on your practice. For the vast majority of practitioners, some of the most important teachings they receive are from teachers that they may never have a personal relationship with, and there's nothing wrong with that. These guys are very busy and it's not possible for them to give personalized advice to thousands of students.
Passing By
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Passing By »

ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:53 pm
Our Pristine Mind is a great book. It'll give you a real feel and you'll get to practice useful meditation on the basis of it. But it can't serve as a basis for Dzogchen itself. You'll need to connect with a teacher for that. Like the book's author for example.
Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
[/quote]

What's your timezone?
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Passing By wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:25 am
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:53 pm
Our Pristine Mind is a great book. It'll give you a real feel and you'll get to practice useful meditation on the basis of it. But it can't serve as a basis for Dzogchen itself. You'll need to connect with a teacher for that. Like the book's author for example.
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
What's your timezone?
I checked their calendar and joining events at at 03.00 wont work. Same with all day events. Start time is not bad (19-20.00) but those end way too late.
East coast is actually not that bad at all.

Malocm recommended Finland in another thread:
Tulku Dakpa in Finland teaches in English. He understands Dzogchen teachings quite perfectly.
... where is my sledge and dogs.
Archie2009
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

ject wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 5:52 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:25 am
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
What's your timezone?
I checked their calendar and joining events at at 03.00 wont work. Same with all day events. Start time is not bad (19-20.00) but those end way too late.
Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche only teaches Dzogchen sparsely online at the moment anyway. Last year (October) and the year before you needed to have received ngondro and be practicing that either from him or another guru. But his Dzogchen teachings weren't advertised on his website itself in 2022.
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Archie2009 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 4:17 pm Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche only teaches Dzogchen sparsely online at the moment anyway. Last year (October) and the year before you needed to have received ngondro and be practicing that either from him or another guru. But his Dzogchen teachings weren't advertised on his website itself in 2022.
It still is:
"Online Ngondro Retreat: Essential Prerequisites to the Practice of Dzogchen With Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche"
philji
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by philji »

Although Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche suggests ngondro practice for dzogchen teachings, his ngondro focus is not so much based upon numbers. He suggests you feel the practice . Practicing refuge and bodhicitta and developing a good heart are the recommendations he gives.
I have just finished watching his online ngondro videos and they are really heart opening instructions and guidance.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Passing By »

ject wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 5:52 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:25 am
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm Our Pristine Mind is a great book. It'll give you a real feel and you'll get to practice useful meditation on the basis of it. But it can't serve as a basis for Dzogchen itself. You'll need to connect with a teacher for that. Like the book's author for example.
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
What's your timezone?
I checked their calendar and joining events at at 03.00 wont work. Same with all day events. Start time is not bad (19-20.00) but those end way too late.
East coast is actually not that bad at all.

Malocm recommended Finland in another thread:
Tulku Dakpa in Finland teaches in English. He understands Dzogchen teachings quite perfectly.
... where is my sledge and dogs.
I get you. West coast time teachings mean I have to break my sleep into 4 hour stages for me as well, but sometimes, when they have recordings, then it's more workable since you only need to be live for empowerments while teachings can be watched later.

If Euro timezone works better for you, then there's plenty of European center-based Bon teachers frequently transmitting Dzogchen. I'm in Japan and usually those timings still can work for me (ending around 1 am at the latest).

Speaking of Malcolm, his teaching timing is also similar to the European ones even though he's in the US.
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Passing By wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:09 pm
I get you. West coast time teachings mean I have to break my sleep into 4 hour stages for me as well.

...

Speaking of Malcolm, his teaching timing is also similar to the European ones even though he's in the US.
Biphasic sleep used to be completely normal until cheap gas and then electric lights became common. This is how small babies sleep :)

Malcolm teaches? Nice. I thought he is that famous translator but I was not sure about that either.
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Find a teacher that interests you, if there is any kind of introductory process you do that, then you take teachings and apply them, it’s really no more complicated than that, just investigate the teacher before jumping in.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:07 pm
ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.
Lets use current Merigar event as an example. Perhaps this helps you to understand my confusion.

1. I could not schedule a trip so I am using webcast. In other words, I never met him in person.
2. Every lecture is begins with guruyoga. I have a faint idea of what it's about but sure, I could read a book about it but guess what, it needs an introduction.... from a guru who is long gone.
3. It ends with a "Dedication of merit" that sounds completely different from the one I have seen.
4. Lets say, he has another event, same structure: guruyoga - lecture- dedication of merit.
5. Do I have to go and find another guru to learn what guruyoga and dedication of merit are all about if he has not planned a seminar on those topics?
6. As I mentioned, I have never met Silvano Namkhai in person. He has no idea I even exist :smile: but by what you just wrote, I can call him my guru and he has no say in it.

How can there be any "personal guidance" in a situation like this?
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by pemachophel »

IMO, webcasts are great for extending one's Dharma education but they do not replace a personal connection with an in-the-flesh Teacher who knows you and what you need. All the Zoom teachings of recent years have been a great blessing, but I think they have also been somewhat of a double-edged sword in terms of the propagation of the Dharma. Just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:07 pm
ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.
Lets use current Merigar event as an example. Perhaps this helps you to understand my confusion.

1. I could not schedule a trip so I am using webcast. In other words, I never met him in person.
2. Every lecture is begins with guruyoga. I have a faint idea of what it's about but sure, I could read a book about it but guess what, it needs an introduction.... from a guru who is long gone.
3. It ends with a "Dedication of merit" that sounds completely different from the one I have seen.
4. Lets say, he has another event, same structure: guruyoga - lecture- dedication of merit.
5. Do I have to go and find another guru to learn what guruyoga and dedication of merit are all about if he has not planned a seminar on those topics?
6. As I mentioned, I have never met Silvano Namkhai in person. He has no idea I even exist :smile: but by what you just wrote, I can call him my guru and he has no say in it.

How can there be any "personal guidance" in a situation like this?
Ok well, this is one organization and teacher, and Yeshi is new to the gig anyway.

As a student of ChNN (who I consider my root teacher, though ironically we never met) from my perspective following his teachings is much about being responsible for yourself, reaching out to senior students, sending emails when you need help and *really thinking about what questions you need answered*.

Once you had the lungs the instructions themselves came in the form of not only webcasts, but the extensive collection of practices available through Shang Shung institute and your own willingness to dig for information. There are dvds, video, etc. available for people with transmission from ChNN to learn practices.

So, practicing in ChNNs lineage is pretty self-directed if you are a remote student with no local group. However, I have no clue how any of this works with people who came post ChNN passing and who want to be Yeshis students.

There are lots of other teachers doing more structured approach, going step by step through texts, answering questions etc. often on Zoom if in person is a no go.

Totally off the top of my head and in no particular order there’s:


Bonpo wise:

Mustang Bön Foundation
Ligmincha
Shenten Darje Ling
Yeru Bon center

Etc….

Buddhist Dzogchen:

Malcolm - if he’s taking students
James Low
Lama Lena
Mingyur Rinpoche (though I think there’s a fair amount of preliminary here?)
B. Allan Wallace

Etc….

Anyway, IMO people put way to much expectation on Lamas to solve their problems and spoon feed them. It seems like the opposite of the mindset needed to engage.

The important thing is being able to get questions asked as they come up and to get guidance when needed, it doesn’t have to always fit the ideal and frankly a large part of what we receive is down to our own diligencel, faith and perseverance, period.

If you’re exclusively interested in DC teachings, this is its own issue, and hopefully someone here could help with that as the whole situation with transmission is still a bit up in the air, I take it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Sādhaka
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Sādhaka »

Traditionally, I think that you would formally request teachings, with a Khata and other offering. Although nowadays, when there’s a teaching event, you just show up if you’re interested, whether at the physical location or via webcast or zoom, and the Lama gives the teaching under the context and assumption that everyone who participates is accepted as a student.

My understanding though, is that one should always do a Mandala offering, even if it’s during a internet teaching; whether the Mandala offering is through visualization (the way ChNN often taught it), using physical implements (as with the Ngöndro accumulations), or with Mudra; and give some kind of Dana offering.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:38 pmB. Allan Wallace
Only if you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really are into doing shamatha.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:44 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:38 pmB. Allan Wallace
Only if you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really are into doing shamatha.
This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:44 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:38 pmB. Allan Wallace
Only if you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really are into doing shamatha.
This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:44 pm Only if you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really are into doing shamatha.
This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
There are a ton of teaching that start that way, using shine/lhagtong, semdzins to point out the natural state, Rushens or other exercises to separate samsara and nirvana etc.

I guess my question would be why you think that’s unusual, minus his specific take. I’ve had Dzogchen transmission/teaching from people other than ChNN and they made extensive use of shamatha for pointing out and stabilizing recognition.

In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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