No guru, no dzogchen?

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dharmafootsteps
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:54 pm

This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
There are a ton of teaching that start that way, using shine, semdzins to point out the natural state, etc.

I guess my question would be why you think that’s unusual, minus his specific take.

In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer.
Using the Visuddhimagga as a standard for śamatha makes him highly idiosyncratic for someone in the Tibetan tradition does it not?

He also often says that he thinks Tibetans generally significantly underemphasise śamatha, so it would seem he acknowledges that his approach is unusual himself.

Simply speaking with regard to the teachings I've personally received, from him and others, he emphasised śamatha as much much more important, and recommend a vast number of hours on it compared to anyone else.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:17 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:01 pm I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
There are a ton of teaching that start that way, using shine, semdzins to point out the natural state, etc.

I guess my question would be why you think that’s unusual, minus his specific take.

In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer.
Using the Visuddhimagga as a standard for śamatha makes him highly idiosyncratic for someone in the Tibetan tradition does it not?

He also often says that he thinks Tibetans generally significantly underemphasise śamatha, so it would seem he acknowledges that his approach is unusual himself.

Simply speaking with regard to the teachings I've personally received, from him and others, he emphasised śamatha as much much more important, and recommend a vast number of hours on it compared to anyone else.
That’s fair, but as compared to say the Bonpo Atri teachings I am doing now, the difference is amount of practice but not necessarily kind, a basic stability is required regardless, but sure he emphasizes it more than others. Shine is used as method all over Dzogchen though, so my confusion is just why this is seen as unusual.

Just a little surprised that the same people feel the need to complain about his approach repeatedly, but ymmv, and in the interest of keeping on topic I’ll concede your point.
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Malcolm
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:07 pm
ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.
Lets use current Merigar event as an example. Perhaps this helps you to understand my confusion.

1. I could not schedule a trip so I am using webcast. In other words, I never met him in person.
Even if you went in person, you would not have met him. There are 1000 people there.
2. Every lecture is begins with guruyoga. I have a faint idea of what it's about but sure, I could read a book about it but guess what, it needs an introduction.... from a guru who is long gone.
It is about discovering the state the teacher introduced you to and then continuing in that state.
3. It ends with a "Dedication of merit" that sounds completely different from the one I have seen.
The Oṃ dhare...etc is not actually the dedication. It is a series of mantras from Jigme Lingpa that are used to seal one's dedication. There are actually verses of dedication in the longer secondary practices we recite, concluding with om dhare....
4. Lets say, he has another event, same structure: guruyoga - lecture- dedication of merit

5. Do I have to go and find another guru to learn what guruyoga and dedication of merit are all about if he has not planned a seminar on those topics?
You could just read the Guru Yoga book by Yeshe's father. It has all the necessary information.
6. As I mentioned, I have never met Silvano Namkhai in person. He has no idea I even exist :smile: but by what you just wrote, I can call him my guru and he has no say in it.
We are all followers of the Buddha, and he also has no say in it.
How can there be any "personal guidance" in a situation like this?
Personal guidance is overrated. But frankly, more detailed questions can be handled by SMS instructors like Steve Landsberg, etc.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:54 pm

This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
There are a ton of teaching that start that way, using shine/lhagtong, semdzins to point out the natural state, Rushens or other exercises to separate samsara and nirvana etc.

I guess my question would be why you think that’s unusual, minus his specific take. I’ve had Dzogchen transmission/teaching from people other than ChNN and they made extensive use of shamatha for pointing out and stabilizing recognition.

In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
That's not what's going on, I believe. You're going off on an understandable tangent. As far as B. Alan Wallace is concerned, I suggest if you ever get a Wisdom all-access membership check out his 5 courses Introduction to Dzogchen and Restricted Dzogchen Teachings 1 to 4.
Last edited by Archie2009 on Tue May 16, 2023 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.

The idea that one needs to spend months and years on developing śamatha according the middle Bhāvanakrama of Kamalaśila is misguided, from the point of view of Longchenpa. Longchenpa very specifically criticizes this approach in chapter 10 of the autocommentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.
I don’t think BAWs video accessible Wisdom Experience courses purport to be transmission or introduction, do they?

Also I’m skeptical as to a distinction between developing trekchod based on semdzins vs. shine. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen techniques like gazing on the white ah actually called a semdzin somewhere.

So, I don’t really get the functional distinction other than Semdzins being more entertaining and interesting than traditional Shine techniques. I don’t mean that facetiously, more entertaining often means more engaging…but I don’t really get the distinction outside of this or that (maybe hyperbolic) claim of greater efficacy..
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.

The idea that one needs to spend months and years on developing śamatha according the middle Bhāvanakrama of Kamalaśila is misguided, from the point of view of Longchenpa. Longchenpa very specifically criticizes this approach in chapter 10 of the autocommentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen.
No disagreement with that.

:smile:
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Lingpupa »

pemachophel wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:11 pm IMO, webcasts are great for extending one's Dharma education but they do not replace a personal connection with an in-the-flesh Teacher who knows you and what you need. All the Zoom teachings of recent years have been a great blessing, but I think they have also been somewhat of a double-edged sword in terms of the propagation of the Dharma. Just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt.
:good: :buddha1: :good:
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.

The idea that one needs to spend months and years on developing śamatha according the middle Bhāvanakrama of Kamalaśila is misguided, from the point of view of Longchenpa. Longchenpa very specifically criticizes this approach in chapter 10 of the autocommentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen.
No disagreement with that.

:smile:
Except your Dzogchen isn't threkchö either.
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Jules 09
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:27 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:48 pm

If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.

The idea that one needs to spend months and years on developing śamatha according the middle Bhāvanakrama of Kamalaśila is misguided, from the point of view of Longchenpa. Longchenpa very specifically criticizes this approach in chapter 10 of the autocommentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen.
No disagreement with that.

:smile:
Except your Dzogchen isn't threkchö either.
Perhaps some clarification on Malcolm's comment is necessary : Trekcho is a practice on the path of Dzogchen.
But Dzogchen is just Dzogchen.
Last edited by Jules 09 on Tue May 16, 2023 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Archie2009
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:51 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:27 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:09 pm



No disagreement with that.

:smile:
Except your Dzogchen isn't threkchö either.
Perhaps some clarification on Malcolm's comment is necessary : Trekcho is a practice on the path of Dzogchen.
But Dzogchen is just Dzogchen.
You're just wasting Malcolm's valuable time.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:46 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:12 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:01 pm I only know him from his Wisdom Acadamy courses on Dudjom Lingpa's texts, I had all-access membership for a while, and it is literally all he has you do in the exercises. A mind based practice.
There are a ton of teaching that start that way, using shine/lhagtong, semdzins to point out the natural state, Rushens or other exercises to separate samsara and nirvana etc.

I guess my question would be why you think that’s unusual, minus his specific take. I’ve had Dzogchen transmission/teaching from people other than ChNN and they made extensive use of shamatha for pointing out and stabilizing recognition.

In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.
That's not what's going on, I believe. You're going off on an understandable tangent. As far as B. Alan Wallace is concerned, I suggest if you ever get a Wisdom all-access membership check out his 5 courses Introduction to Dzogchen and Restricted Dzogchen Teachings 1 to 4.
I have done the intro course and the first one, which seemed mostly the same material. Both courses to me seemed Shamatha/Vipassana sort prep or ancillary to Dzogchen, along with some pointing out instructions here and there, we can debate the effectiveness or real presence of those over video, I just don’t find the obsessiveness you are referring to. There certainly are Shamatha and Vipassana there, but that is in the text to some degree.

Iirc correctly those are both teaching on Dharma of Idiot Clothed in Mud and Feathers, and proceed according to the text, obviously with BAWs particular take.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Tata1
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 10:07 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:51 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:27 pm
Except your Dzogchen isn't threkchö either.
Perhaps some clarification on Malcolm's comment is necessary : Trekcho is a practice on the path of Dzogchen.
But Dzogchen is just Dzogchen.
You're just wasting Malcolm's valuable time.
I dont agree with jules post either but your last too comments have been completely uncalled for. If you get so worked up about someone disagreeing in internet with you then maybe you should start judging your own practice, not his. You are gonna get another good thread locked.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:44 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:38 pmB. Allan Wallace
Only if you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really are into doing shamatha.
This is misleading IME. Lots of Dzogchen presentation begins with developing a certain competency in Shamatha anyway, it’s not some unusual or idiosyncratic thing, though obviously yes, he emphasizes it.
Not misleading at all. I love alan and respect him but all his students end up all worried that they havent achivied shamata (by really high standars) and so they cant practice dzogchen.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:07 pm
ject wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:28 pm In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.
Lets use current Merigar event as an example. Perhaps this helps you to understand my confusion.

1. I could not schedule a trip so I am using webcast. In other words, I never met him in person.
2. Every lecture is begins with guruyoga. I have a faint idea of what it's about but sure, I could read a book about it but guess what, it needs an introduction.... from a guru who is long gone.
3. It ends with a "Dedication of merit" that sounds completely different from the one I have seen.
4. Lets say, he has another event, same structure: guruyoga - lecture- dedication of merit.
5. Do I have to go and find another guru to learn what guruyoga and dedication of merit are all about if he has not planned a seminar on those topics?
6. As I mentioned, I have never met Silvano Namkhai in person. He has no idea I even exist :smile: but by what you just wrote, I can call him my guru and he has no say in it.

How can there be any "personal guidance" in a situation like this?
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:04 am
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.
Those poorly interpreted short definitions of guruyoga and dedicating merit? Yes, I know the definitions but I am sure it's not enough to properly practice any of it. I probably have to get the book (162 pages by Namkhai Norbu https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... uyoga.html) to get a better idea.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by not_z »

ject wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:10 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:04 am
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.
Those poorly interpreted short definitions of guruyoga and dedicating merit? Yes, I know the definitions but I am sure it's not enough to properly practice any of it. I probably have to get the book (162 pages by Namkhai Norbu https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... uyoga.html) to get a better idea.
I don't think that the teachings of Yeshi are really something that you can take and understand and practice right away. They are more something that you have to take with you as is, and little by little let them mature, and see what flowers grow out of them. But they are not a set of easy-to-do clearly-explained practices, that's for sure. That's why he has been saying to go talk to the instructors for any practice you are interested in. So I think your confusion is pretty normal.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

ject wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:10 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:04 am
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.
Those poorly interpreted short definitions of guruyoga and dedicating merit? Yes, I know the definitions but I am sure it's not enough to properly practice any of it. I probably have to get the book (162 pages by Namkhai Norbu https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... uyoga.html) to get a better idea.
Things need time to mature. There is no such thing as learning something 100% and then applying it. You learn by applying and clarifying doubts in the process
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:53 pm
Also I’m skeptical as to a distinction between developing trekchod based on semdzins vs. shine. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen techniques like gazing on the white ah actually called a semdzin somewhere.

So, I don’t really get the functional distinction other than Semdzins being more entertaining and interesting than traditional Shine techniques. I don’t mean that facetiously, more entertaining often means more engaging…but I don’t really get the distinction outside of this or that (maybe hyperbolic) claim of greater efficacy..
The term semzin is a translation of the term dharāṇa, as as it sounds, it is a prelude to dhyāna and samādhi.

There are twenty-one semzins mentioned explicitly in the the Dzogchen tantras and there is a smaller subset identified by . They are divided into three groups: the first group of seven are for placing the mind in a calm state; the second group of seven are for parting mind and body; and the third group of seven are for entering into dharmatā. Then there is rushan practice. But as I already mentioned, Longchenpa criticizes the approach of normative śamatha and vipaśyanā, which is object-bases. You might object, the semzins are object based as well. However, the semszin are structured in a logical sequence which indeed is more efficient, and allow one to easily discover the natural dhyāna of rig pa, which after all is the point.

This is far more effective than trying to achieve perfect śamatha, which is still based in mind, and is without any method of nakedly exposing rig pa.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

ject wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:10 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:04 am
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.
Those poorly interpreted short definitions of guruyoga and dedicating merit? Yes, I know the definitions but I am sure it's not enough to properly practice any of it. I probably have to get the book (162 pages by Namkhai Norbu https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... uyoga.html) to get a better idea.
There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you have received transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
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