No guru, no dzogchen?

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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

justsit wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:55 pm
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm ...
Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
How badly do you want the teachings?

Since most of us here do not have the merit to have access to a Dzogchen master when it's convenient. we must make some sacrifices. I'm guessing many here know people who have quit their jobs and moved across country, or made a 10 hour drive after working all day, or spent a fortune to stay for three days in NYC, or flown halfway around the world to get to a teaching or receive a blessing.

Obstacles - sometimes big ones - will arise, it's part of our karma. If you really, really want a guru, you may have to climb some metaphorical mountains to find them.
When I was a kid, I had to walk 10 km to school, barefoot and uphill in both direction, while knee deep in snow. :smile:

Why add artificial obstacles that can be avoided like time zone conflict?

Being tired, getting up after 3 h of sleep or pulling a 24h day etc wont improve my ability to observe nor absorb the teachings. It also wont make the teachings more "true" for me. Or me more dedicated.
People love to brag about how they made themselves suffer and how they made a massive sacrifice to get something they thought they want. I am sure many think that this demonstrates their dedication (and secretly strokes their ego). If that's what keeps someone motivated to stick with what ever they got after all that drama, more power to them. I just do not buy that "philosophy".

justsit wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:55 pm or spent a fortune to stay for three days in NYC
I am sure they enjoyed the penthouse suite at The Mark. :tongue:
Giovanni
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Giovanni »

muni wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:06 am There are often masters pointing out or should I say "inviting in nature ", while here talks run.

It is perhaps useful to have the merits to recognize they talk as being nature?
I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that in your opinion because Dzogchen is described as the natural state we do not need a Guru? Or have I misunderstood?
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Josef
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Josef »

ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:08 pm
ject wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:30 pm
Now it seems, there is no way around it because it's a part and parcel of getting dzogchen-teaching.
How would you expect to receive Dzogchen teachings without a teacher?
My bet was on books and meditation but that blew up.
Terma wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:17 am :rolling:
rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
I do think that there is a partial truth to this.
Now it's gone and I have to go lama chasing. That is a depressing thought.
You'll be glad you did.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Archie2009
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:53 pm Our Pristine Mind is a great book. It'll give you a real feel and you'll get to practice useful meditation on the basis of it. But it can't serve as a basis for Dzogchen itself. You'll need to connect with a teacher for that. Like the book's author for example.
Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
I hope you'll eventually find someone. Good luck. :smile:
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justsit
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by justsit »

Whatever you do, may you be happy, peaceful, and free from suffering.
muni
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by muni »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:44 pm
muni wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:06 am There are often masters pointing out or should I say "inviting in nature ", while here talks run.

It is perhaps useful to have the merits to recognize they talk as being nature?
I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that in your opinion because Dzogchen is described as the natural state we do not need a Guru? Or have I misunderstood?
Yes that is definitely misunderstood. DZOGCHEN IS MASTER-STUDENT. So thanks to point to this!
I am saying while people are arguing the Masters are pointing out but there is no time/trust to listen to them.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by muni »

rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
Perhaps encouraging each other, not to fall in distraction, is all what can. Years and years wasted, for many of us, having no stability in remaining the Guru is pointing to. Very sad.

"May all abide in equanimity, free from attachment and hatred."

I am making tea and coffee and there are cups for everyone. !_!=
FieldBob
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by FieldBob »

justsit wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:15 pm
FieldBob wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:12 pm
rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
I would stick to this.
And yet here you are. :tongue:
Unless you don't have a guru....
Sorry I have 84000 excuses to be here.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ject wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:39 pm
justsit wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:55 pm
ject wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:54 pm ...
Thought about it for a moment. He is in Pacific time zone, meaning I cant participate in any of his live events.
How badly do you want the teachings?

Since most of us here do not have the merit to have access to a Dzogchen master when it's convenient. we must make some sacrifices. I'm guessing many here know people who have quit their jobs and moved across country, or made a 10 hour drive after working all day, or spent a fortune to stay for three days in NYC, or flown halfway around the world to get to a teaching or receive a blessing.

Obstacles - sometimes big ones - will arise, it's part of our karma. If you really, really want a guru, you may have to climb some metaphorical mountains to find them.
When I was a kid, I had to walk 10 km to school, barefoot and uphill in both direction, while knee deep in snow. :smile:

Why add artificial obstacles that can be avoided like time zone conflict?

Being tired, getting up after 3 h of sleep or pulling a 24h day etc wont improve my ability to observe nor absorb the teachings. It also wont make the teachings more "true" for me. Or me more dedicated.
People love to brag about how they made themselves suffer and how they made a massive sacrifice to get something they thought they want. I am sure many think that this demonstrates their dedication (and secretly strokes their ego). If that's what keeps someone motivated to stick with what ever they got after all that drama, more power to them. I just do not buy that "philosophy".

justsit wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:55 pm or spent a fortune to stay for three days in NYC
I am sure they enjoyed the penthouse suite at The Mark. :tongue:
I mean, sure it can be this big romantic quest if you want.

There are also people teaching and giving transmission over Zoom, etc. it really doesn’t have to be a big production these days unless you want it to be.

I’ve had four Dzogchen teachers, two have been entirely remote, one of those I consider my root Guru and I never even met him. I think in person relationships are always worth cultivating if you can, but there are other kinds of opportunities.

Particularly since the pandemic, a lot of groups are figuring out how to do transmission and teaching very well remotely.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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justsit
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by justsit »

Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
I do too, but there are some teachings that are only accessible via Zoom, etc. for lots of people.

Particularly for Dzogchen students, IMO not taking advantage of some of these opportunities because they are not in person is shooting oneself in the foot, ymmv.

There are also different forms of “screen time” here. In one of the groups I participate in I get more access to the teacher via Zoom for direct questions than I would at an in person gathering, just due to format. We have weekly readings, practice directions, people we can reach out to for questions and regular ability to interact with the teacher, a video archive, etc. The DC at one time had a similar setup, if you wanted to go deep, everything needed was there.

I’d love to go in person, but honestly it’s a deeper study than some things I’ve done in person. So I’m not convinced that online is always a lesser experience at all, and in todays world I think it’s a bad idea for a newer Dzogchen student to completely reject online formats, unless they have the good fortune to -realistically- go in person.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by jet.urgyen »

justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

The teacher looks at you and know how to teach you, online that is much more difficult. That said, someone who have too many students to handle won't make any difference to follow online or in person beyhond some kind of blessing one receives when one is staying around. If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.

I agree with you, but i don't see it much of a romantic thing, it is an actual problem.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

The teacher looks at you and know how to teach you, online that is much more difficult. That said, someone who have too many students to handle won't make any difference to follow online or in person beyhond some kind of blessing one receives when one is staying around. If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.
Especially with teachers with a lot of students, in person they are often so busy receiving people, answering “basic” questions etc. that in depth, individualized teaching might not happen at all for students who as past needing the basics. Often this is true even with smaller groups, due to teaching setup there is little opportunity to go beyond the surface. Again, I’ve done online programs with -more-opportunity for teacher dialogue, etc. than in person teaching, so I don’t think that’s the issue.

The advantage of a well-run online program is that it filters out a lot of the noise that comes with larger (and some not so large) in person events and allows for more personalized Q&A, etc.

The biggest disadvantage is that the teacher cannot directly practice with you in person and observe, so it requires a student good at self-driven learning and good communication skills. The other big disadvantage is simply all the ineffable stuff that comes along with doing anything in person, and plenty of online programs are not we’ll organized.

Still, IMO if someone is really interested in Dzogchen there are teachings and teachers out there who are accessible and don’t require a huge trip or undertaking, which is actually quite a blessing.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

.... If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.
I honestly cant see the point having one like that.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Ayu »

ject wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 8:47 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:35 pm
justsit wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 5:10 pm Dunno, I prefer Real Life™ to screen time. Does that make me a romantic? Or just a dinosaur...:thinking:
Personalized teaching should be in person. Generalities are fine to receive online.

.... If i can't even talk to the teacher or the teacher can't even dispose a minute for giving me orientation... i don't even bother going.
I honestly cant see the point having one like that.
Sometimes the ways of teaching are more subtle.
Superficially, my teacher is holding a lecture in front of a crowd, but if I'm physically present he has the chance to teach in manifold direct ways. Especially my teacher uses to perform short group meditations on the regarding topic. Like this he adds practice to the theory.

Listening to him directly is so much different from reading a book. It's pure blessing.

I mean, if I don't find such a teacher - okay, then I have to cope with that. Then a book is better than nothing. But I see no rational reason to reject such a teacher, if he's available.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
Yes.., hop out of the well and go see the ocean.

:anjali:
Last edited by Jules 09 on Mon May 01, 2023 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 9:41 pm
rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
Yes.., hop out of the well and go see the ocean.

:anjali:
Participation here is completely voluntarily, minus the irresistible urge to be 😎 and edgy.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Jules 09
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 9:51 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 9:41 pm
rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
Yes.., hop out of the well and go see the ocean.

:anjali:
Participation here is completely voluntarily, minus the irresistible urge to be 😎 and edgy.
:hug:

:namaste:
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by amanitamusc »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 9:41 pm
rai wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:46 am and once you find a Guru never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time
Yes.., hop out of the well and go see the ocean.

:anjali:
I truly hope you follow your own advice. :smile:
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

ject wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:39 pm When I was a kid, I had to walk 10 km to school, barefoot and uphill in both direction, while knee deep in snow. :smile:
I guess you mean up and down in both directions? When I read this I had an immediate mental image:

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