No guru, no dzogchen?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Talk on the role of Shamatha/Vipaysana split to here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=42380
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm ... First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Thank you for your time and effort. Ordering the book.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Archie2009 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 5:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:48 am
Archie2009 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 10:07 pm You're just wasting Malcolm's valuable time.
I dont agree with jules post either but your last too comments have been completely uncalled for. If you get so worked up about someone disagreeing in internet with you then maybe you should start judging your own practice, not his. You are gonna get another good thread locked.
As I said before before my reply got deleted, Jules does not know what he is talking about. The thread had run its course with him determining that course, as so often. It is Jules who hijacks Dzogchen threads to death with his agenda. He does elicit good replies from several others, but only to counter his misinformation.

It is typical of the moderation on this forum that your self-righteous comment is allowed, while my reply was deleted.
If you cant understand something as simple as treating other who you do not agree with with respect then there is nothing more to talk.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

Tata1 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 6:56 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 5:11 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:48 am

I dont agree with jules post either but your last too comments have been completely uncalled for. If you get so worked up about someone disagreeing in internet with you then maybe you should start judging your own practice, not his. You are gonna get another good thread locked.
As I said before before my reply got deleted, Jules does not know what he is talking about. The thread had run its course with him determining that course, as so often. It is Jules who hijacks Dzogchen threads to death with his agenda. He does elicit good replies from several others, but only to counter his misinformation.

It is typical of the moderation on this forum that your self-righteous comment is allowed, while my reply was deleted.
If you cant understand something as simple as treating other who you do not agree with with respect then there is nothing more to talk.
I get what you are saying, but I feel there is a difference between having a difference of opinion and indulging a zealous flat-earther, which is a fair comparison to Jules position. In Dzogchen it is possible to be no longer in doubt due to experience. It is clear Jules' experience does not reach that far. That might sound self-aggrandizing, but the Dzogchen equivalent of a flat-earther position is fit for ridicule, and I wasn't the only one doing the ridiculing. Though I do have less patience than most. That is clear.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by muni »

I get what you are saying, but I feel there is a difference between having a difference of opinion and indulging a zealous flat-earther, which is a fair comparison to Jules position. In Dzogchen it is possible to be no longer in doubt due to experience. It is clear Jules' experience does not reach that far. That might sound self-aggrandizing, but the Dzogchen equivalent of a flat-earther position is fit for ridicule, and I wasn't the only one doing the ridiculing. Though I do have less patience than most. That is clear.
And you are sure this is not a projection what is been supported?
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you have received transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Books are interesting, almost done with "The Song Of The Vajra" but I am still stuck at "...other than a direct introduction".
I have been doing the visualisation of "A" with and without aid for while. Started before I read this particular book. It's getting a bit boring :)
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Norwegian »

ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:14 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you have received transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Books are interesting, almost done with "The Song Of The Vajra" but I am still stuck at "...other than a direct introduction".
I have been doing the visualisation of "A" with and without aid for while. Started before I read this particular book. It's getting a bit boring :)
Did you not participate in Yeshi's retreat?
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you havereceived transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Did you not participate in Yeshi's retreat?
I do not understand your question.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Dawa Ösel »

ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:11 pm
Norwegian wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you havereceived transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Did you not participate in Yeshi's retreat?
I do not understand your question.
He wants to know, if you got your direct introduction or not
Tata1
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:14 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:26 pm There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you have received transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.
Books are interesting, almost done with "The Song Of The Vajra" but I am still stuck at "...other than a direct introduction".
I have been doing the visualisation of "A" with and without aid for while. Started before I read this particular book. It's getting a bit boring :)
Igor berkhin is giving a series of lectures on the basics on weekends. Im sure you can ask him the recording of the first day
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:01 pm ...

Igor berkhin is giving a series of lectures on the basics on weekends. Im sure you can ask him the recording of the first day
Thank for the hint but where? Got a link?
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:00 pm
ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:11 pm
Norwegian wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:54 am
Did you not participate in Yeshi's retreat?
I do not understand your question.
He wants to know, if you got your direct introduction or not
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature.
I have never participated in any of his events before so maybe it was there but I completely missed it.
Or maybe I did not understand the translator etc.
It is also possible that I am confused about the terminology. :)
I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Archie2009 »

ject wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:11 pm
Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:00 pm
ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:11 pm

I do not understand your question.
He wants to know, if you got your direct introduction or not
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature.
I have never participated in any of his events before so maybe it was there but I completely missed it.
Or maybe I did not understand the translator etc.
It is also possible that I am confused about the terminology. :)
I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
Yeshi was speaking on several levels from the start of the first session, as he admitted.
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

ject wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:11 pm
Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:00 pm
ject wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:11 pm

I do not understand your question.
He wants to know, if you got your direct introduction or not
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature.
I have never participated in any of his events before so maybe it was there but I completely missed it.
Or maybe I did not understand the translator etc.
It is also possible that I am confused about the terminology. :)
I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
You did. The first thing he did was.explain ati guru yoga and he expanded on that.
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ject
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by ject »

Tata1 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:05 pm
ject wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:11 pm
Dawa Ösel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:00 pm

He wants to know, if you got your direct introduction or not
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature.
I have never participated in any of his events before so maybe it was there but I completely missed it.
Or maybe I did not understand the translator etc.
It is also possible that I am confused about the terminology. :)
I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
You did. The first thing he did was.explain ati guru yoga and he expanded on that.
So, are you telling me that I can finally participate in all those events with "Requirement for the retreat: direct introduction by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Yeshi Silvano Namkhai." label?

That's awesome!
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

ject wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:33 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:05 pm
ject wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:11 pm

In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature.
I have never participated in any of his events before so maybe it was there but I completely missed it.
Or maybe I did not understand the translator etc.
It is also possible that I am confused about the terminology. :)
I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
You did. The first thing he did was.explain ati guru yoga and he expanded on that.
So, are you telling me that I can finally participate in all those events with "Requirement for the retreat: direct introduction by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Yeshi Silvano Namkhai." label?

That's awesome!
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
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Jules 09
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:37 pm
ject wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:33 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:05 pm

You did. The first thing he did was.explain ati guru yoga and he expanded on that.
So, are you telling me that I can finally participate in all those events with "Requirement for the retreat: direct introduction by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Yeshi Silvano Namkhai." label?

That's awesome!
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
ject wrote:
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature...

I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
Tata1 wrote:
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
If ject is, as stated, "completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality" ",
what exactly is it that "will mature with time" ?
Tata1
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Tata1 »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:15 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:37 pm
ject wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:33 pm

So, are you telling me that I can finally participate in all those events with "Requirement for the retreat: direct introduction by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Yeshi Silvano Namkhai." label?

That's awesome!
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
ject wrote:
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature...

I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
Tata1 wrote:
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
If ject is, as stated, "completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality" ",
what exactly is it that "will mature with time" ?
The recognition of his own state.
99% of people dont get it during DI, but applying the methods eventually they do
We know you are chigcharwa jules, dont worry🤭
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by stoneinfocus »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:15 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:37 pm
ject wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:33 pm

So, are you telling me that I can finally participate in all those events with "Requirement for the retreat: direct introduction by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Yeshi Silvano Namkhai." label?

That's awesome!
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
ject wrote:
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature...

I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
Tata1 wrote:
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
If ject is, as stated, "completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality" ",
what exactly is it that "will mature with time" ?
His understanding of his real condition. Obviously.
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Jules 09
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Re: No guru, no dzogchen?

Post by Jules 09 »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:15 am
Jules 09 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:15 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:37 pm

Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
ject wrote:
In the last event? I cant recall receiving any instructions to have a direct experience or being introduced to my nature...

I am also completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality".
Tata1 wrote:
Yes my friend. Dont worry to much things will mature with time
If ject is, as stated, "completely oblivious to my "real condition and potentiality" ",
what exactly is it that "will mature with time" ?
The recognition of his own state.
99% of people dont get it during DI, but applying the methods eventually they do
We know you are chigcharwa jules, dont worry🤭
99% of people dont get it during DI, but applying the methods eventually they do
So, you appear to be saying that 99% of people that receive DI (Dzogchen Community terminology), are not able to actually practice Dzogchen, as per the Three Statements of Garab Dorje, until some time later when they "eventually" recognize what it was that the guru was actually pointing at. ?

I can somewhat agree with that.

However, most practitioners that I've known, have continued to receive teachings and pointing out instructions many times over a period of several, if not many, years. That has also been my own experience.
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