Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 5:47 pm
My point was that people repeatedly use this citation as a proof text for their own arguments, like three vows did, without understanding the proof text itself is faulty. My point had nothing to do with DR’s understanding of Madhyamaka. That’s a separate issue. But because people get hysterical whenever it is pointed out that a famous master’s writing contains faulty reasonings or citations, it is hard to have a rational discussion about this fact because Tibetan Buddhists are heavily invested in personality cults.
Yeah, lately we see a lot of that with some still present teachers.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: But because people get hysterical whenever it is pointed out that a famous master’s writing contains faulty reasonings or citations, it is hard to have a rational discussion about this fact because Tibetan Buddhists are heavily invested in personality cults.
Well. Hard to disagree. But here people started to use the he-is-a-terton move when Dudjom Rinpoche was receiving another round of flak for upholding a shentong view, the view that is regularly attacked and ridiculed here, sometimes really unpleasantly. The context does matter.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 6:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: But because people get hysterical whenever it is pointed out that a famous master’s writing contains faulty reasonings or citations, it is hard to have a rational discussion about this fact because Tibetan Buddhists are heavily invested in personality cults.
Well. Hard to disagree. But here people started to use the he-is-a-terton move when Dudjom Rinpoche was receiving another round of flak for upholding a shentong view, the view that is regularly attacked and ridiculed here, sometimes really unpleasantly. The context does matter.
Point of fact, he didn’t. And the fact is that gzhan stong pas here are incapable of responding with anything that isn’t just a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote:a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
That’s their limitation, not mine.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Lingpupa »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
Too true.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
That’s their limitation, not mine.
Yours too, of course. Takes two to tango.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:

Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
That’s their limitation, not mine.
Yours too, of course. Takes two to tango.
Clarification for accuracy is not a limitation.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
That’s their limitation, not mine.
A reaction thar pretty much says as much as needs to be said, I think.
All best wishes

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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:09 pm

Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.
That’s their limitation, not mine.
Yours too, of course. Takes two to tango.
Not really, I am always willing to chat with anybody, but I am certainly not willing to agree with everybody, especially when I genuinely think they are in error, or are just blindly quoting opinions.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by PeterC »

I'm wondering whether it's a given that discussion of a topic dominated by centuries of polemic literature, involving worse insults than what we've seen on this thread, would result in a heated discussion when moved onto the internet.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 10:19 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

That’s their limitation, not mine.
Yours too, of course. Takes two to tango.
Clarification for accuracy is not a limitation.


Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."
Last edited by Ayu on Tue May 09, 2023 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quotes.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:38 am Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."
I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 6:17 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:38 am Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."
I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.
You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.

I think there are situations when such closing off of conversational space is useful. I cannot for the world see the shentong talk at DW as being one of them.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 6:17 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:38 am Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."
I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.
You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.
Arguing that gzhan stong is a golden age doctrine is among those absurd criteria. The fact that the gzhan stong pa incorrectly apply the three natures in a manner in utter inconsistent with how they are explained in the foundational documents of the yogacara school, while simultaneously insisting that everyone else has it wrong is another.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 4:31 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 6:17 am

I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.
You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.
Arguing that gzhan stong is a golden age doctrine is among those absurd criteria. The fact that the gzhan stong pa incorrectly apply the three natures in a manner in utter inconsistent with how they are explained in the foundational documents of the yogacara school, while simultaneously insisting that everyone else has it wrong is another.
Any quote on which you could prove that? Otherwise we will have to go and crosscheck and I am a slow reader so it might take a while.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 4:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 4:31 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am

You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.
Arguing that gzhan stong is a golden age doctrine is among those absurd criteria. The fact that the gzhan stong pa incorrectly apply the three natures in a manner in utter inconsistent with how they are explained in the foundational documents of the yogacara school, while simultaneously insisting that everyone else has it wrong is another.
Any quote on which you could prove that? Otherwise we will have to go and crosscheck and I am a slow reader so it might take a while.
Assuming you are referring to disagreement over the three natures , you will have to read Tsongkhapa, Gorampa, etc.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am
I think there are situations when such closing off of conversational space is useful. I cannot for the world see the shentong talk at DW as being one of them.
I am not shutting down gzhan stong pas. They are free to say whatever they like. I have no power to control them, so stop acting like I do.

When it come to gzhan stong and Nyingma, apart from a handful of writers in the Nyingma school who adhered to to it, beginning in the 18th century, it was not a popular view in Nyingma. It was first popularized in Eastern Tibet among the Karma Kagyus, from whom it spread into some quarters of the Nyingma school via Kongtrul’s influence.

Rongzom would have rejected it. Longchenpa explicitly rejected it, as did Mipham, Khenpo Zhenga, and so on. Among those modern Dzogchen teachers who flat out rejected the compatibility of gzhan stong and Dzogchen view was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, our own teacher, who mentioned this point many times. I imagine Khenchen Namdrol also rejects it, as his personal point of view is aligned with Gorampa, at least that’s what he told me thirty years ago (Gorampa = Dzogchen, was basically what he said).
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 4:51 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am
I think there are situations when such closing off of conversational space is useful. I cannot for the world see the shentong talk at DW as being one of them.
I am not shutting down gzhan stong pas. They are free to say whatever they like. I have no power to control them, so stop acting like I do.

When it come to gzhan stong and Nyingma, apart from a handful of writers in the Nyingma school who adhered to to it, beginning in the 18th century, it was not a popular view in Nyingma. It was first popularized in Eastern Tibet among the Karma Kagyus, from whom it spread into some quarters of the Nyingma school via Kongtrul’s influence.

Rongzom would have rejected it. Longchenpa explicitly rejected it, as did Mipham, Khenpo Zhenga, and so on. Among those modern Dzogchen teachers who flat out rejected the compatibility of gzhan stong and Dzogchen view was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, our own teacher, who mentioned this point many times. I imagine Khenchen Namdrol also rejects it, as his personal point of view is aligned with Gorampa, at least that’s what he told me thirty years ago (Gorampa = Dzogchen, was basically what he said).
A lot of what you write here can be contested, and has been contested. I am not going to review it, let alone contest your reading myself, I have little interest in devoting what little free time I have to such polemics, and certainly insufficient skill and knowledge.

But there is one thing that I must say here: ChNN spoke of shentong in different ways at different times, to different people. The transcripts of his SMS1 teachings show that yes, there have been situations when he not only defended it (in Taranatha's version) but defended it explicitly as being something akin to Dzogchen, and something people practising Dzogchen should not disparage. I am not going to quoting it because it is very much restricted material, those who have passed the Base can check, and the rest will believe or not, however they see fit. Elio Guarisco told me that he was conflicted over how to approach it, his Sakya upbringing driving him in one direction, his Dzogchen practice in another.
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Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 4:51 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:08 am
I think there are situations when such closing off of conversational space is useful. I cannot for the world see the shentong talk at DW as being one of them.
I am not shutting down gzhan stong pas. They are free to say whatever they like. I have no power to control them, so stop acting like I do.
This is a complete misunderstanding of the whole situation. You do not need to literally mute someone to ensure that they no longer feel like talking. Of course you are silencing them, by asserting that they cannot defend it here, are unable to do so, and that their position is risible. I mean, cannot you really see that such adversarial stance is a massive put off to most people? You have a great (and very well-deserved) authority here. You do not even have to speak, people will consider what you will say or think of what they will say before you even open your mouth. If you do speak, and speak in as agonistic fashion as you have in this thread, guess what will happen to your interlocutors. Extremely few people enjoy direct confrontations like this with someone whose expertise and position is vastly superior to theirs.

This should really be patently obvious to all of us here, should have been for years.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Tue May 09, 2023 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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