Crazy Wisdom Question

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jet.urgyen
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:26 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?
unconventional behavior is not for everyone.
btw, unconventional behavior is an actual practice, but makes of yogins poor material for being a teacher. people try to emulate their teacher, trying to be like him/her, even in their physical appeareance, their opinions, their style and so, but in this matter you just can't pretend.
true dharma is inexpressible.

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Sādhaka
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Sādhaka »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:27 pmbtw, unconventional behavior is an actual practice, but makes of yogins poor material for being a teacher. people try to emulate their teacher, trying to be like him/her, even in their physical appeareance, their opinions, their style and so, but in this matter you just can't pretend.

May be related:

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:39 pm…one cannot engage in this vratacārya until one has generated strong heat on the path of application. One of the key points of the tale of Kṛṣnācarya is that he is keen to enter into vratcārya before he is ready, disobeys Jalandrapāda, and so he experiences many obstacles.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:44 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:09 pm During the 1970s, Chogyam Trungpa instructed his hippie followers to start wearing suits and ties. Why would a Buddhist need to wear a business suit? He understood they were ego-clinging, attached to the identity of rejecting conventional rules, being without discipline, which they mistakenly perceived as non-attachment.
If mukpo’s ‘craziness’ was limited to requiring his sangha to be well-dressed, I doubt anyone would have had an issue with him, or found him particularly crazy. The reason people think ‘crazy wisdom’ is more often an excuse for abuse is because for Mukpo and others, it was.
Well yeah, of course.
Also, during his lifetime, Lebron James has missed more baskets than he’s sunk.
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PeterC
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:05 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:44 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:09 pm During the 1970s, Chogyam Trungpa instructed his hippie followers to start wearing suits and ties. Why would a Buddhist need to wear a business suit? He understood they were ego-clinging, attached to the identity of rejecting conventional rules, being without discipline, which they mistakenly perceived as non-attachment.
If mukpo’s ‘craziness’ was limited to requiring his sangha to be well-dressed, I doubt anyone would have had an issue with him, or found him particularly crazy. The reason people think ‘crazy wisdom’ is more often an excuse for abuse is because for Mukpo and others, it was.
Well yeah, of course.
Also, during his lifetime, Lebron James has missed more baskets than he’s sunk.
I’m guessing Lebron James doesn’t fondle pre-teen girls and ask them if they know how to be nice to a man. Just to take one example.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:02 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:05 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:44 pm

If mukpo’s ‘craziness’ was limited to requiring his sangha to be well-dressed, I doubt anyone would have had an issue with him, or found him particularly crazy. The reason people think ‘crazy wisdom’ is more often an excuse for abuse is because for Mukpo and others, it was.
Well yeah, of course.
Also, during his lifetime, Lebron James has missed more baskets than he’s sunk.
I’m guessing Lebron James doesn’t fondle pre-teen girls and ask them if they know how to be nice to a man. Just to take one example.
No, but even if he had, this wouldn’t mean he’s not a great basketball player.

I’m not going to turn this discussion about crazy wisdom into a rehash of Chogyam Trungpa’s transgressions. The example of his instructions to his hippie followers is an example of crazy wisdom teaching. I’ll leave it at that.
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Josef
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Josef »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:05 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:44 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:09 pm During the 1970s, Chogyam Trungpa instructed his hippie followers to start wearing suits and ties. Why would a Buddhist need to wear a business suit? He understood they were ego-clinging, attached to the identity of rejecting conventional rules, being without discipline, which they mistakenly perceived as non-attachment.
If mukpo’s ‘craziness’ was limited to requiring his sangha to be well-dressed, I doubt anyone would have had an issue with him, or found him particularly crazy. The reason people think ‘crazy wisdom’ is more often an excuse for abuse is because for Mukpo and others, it was.
Well yeah, of course.
Also, during his lifetime, Lebron James has missed more baskets than he’s sunk.
Perhaps if you are counting his early childhood but his professional fg percentage is 50.5%. Not to split hairs here but one just can not stand for anything that may tarnish LeBrons legacy ;)
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

What's Crazy Wisdom got to do with Bodhicitta?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am What's Crazy Wisdom got to do with Bodhicitta?
They are not specifically related to each other, as far as topics go.
They refer to two different things.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:09 am
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am What's Crazy Wisdom got to do with Bodhicitta?
They are not specifically related to each other, as far as topics go.
They refer to two different things.
Yes but how does they work together Is what I'm saying

I don't know any Crazy Wisdom exponents alive today.

But how does Crazy Wisdom benefit practitioners when it has been practised
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:15 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:09 am
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am What's Crazy Wisdom got to do with Bodhicitta?
They are not specifically related to each other, as far as topics go.
They refer to two different things.
Yes but how does they work together Is what I'm saying

I don't know any Crazy Wisdom exponents alive today.

But how does Crazy Wisdom benefit practitioners when it has been practised
Crazy Wisdom is a general term. It’s a type of approach. For a practitioner who is basically running around in circles, such an approach wakes them up from self-feeding cycles of confusion. It’s like in a movie when someone is screaming hysterically and another person slaps them across the cheek to snap them out of it. Not that it is necessarily a physical act. As I mentioned, using reverse -psychology on a toddler is essentially using crazy wisdom.
A teacher must really know his or her student very well. It has to be a student for whom a crazy seeming approach will work.
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am What's Crazy Wisdom got to do with Bodhicitta?
what do you mean with Bodhicitta? atruism? altruism will be there if it is truly there.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
muni
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by muni »

The crazy actions used by Awaken are to avoid further or even bigger suffering/harm.

The crazy actions by clinging/dream however are not wishing to free from further suffering/harm. That is the very abuse.
anagarika
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by anagarika »

cyril wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:32 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?

On October 2014, when conferring the empowerment of 1,000-armed Avalokitesvara in Vancouver, BC, HH The Dalai Lama mentioned he never met one single person, teacher or not, possessor of this so-called crazy wisdom. Crazy, yes, he said he met plenty of crazies; but crazy wisdom, nope, not a single one. He urged the audience, in case anyone knew one such type, to introduce that person to him for he was very interested in meeting one such individual.
I was there and I heard that with my own ears.
Just sayin'...
I heard a version of this story where someone asked The Dalai Lama about his opinion on crazy wisdom, and he at first did not know the term at all. When the translator explained to him, he said "If it´s crazy, then it´s not wisdom", or words to that effect... :applause:

I highly doubt there can ever be such a thing as "crazy wisdom". It´s contradictio in adjecto - wisdom is the highest form of sanity, that is the complete opposite of craziness. In Buddhism, wisdom is inseparable from its outward expression, i.e. noble conduct. The stories of alleged realised masters who frequent brothels or drink heavily are only good for New Age fairy tale books.
Giovanni
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Giovanni »

anagarika wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:07 am
cyril wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:32 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:32 am Why do some teachers have crazy wisdom and other don’t?

On October 2014, when conferring the empowerment of 1,000-armed Avalokitesvara in Vancouver, BC, HH The Dalai Lama mentioned he never met one single person, teacher or not, possessor of this so-called crazy wisdom. Crazy, yes, he said he met plenty of crazies; but crazy wisdom, nope, not a single one. He urged the audience, in case anyone knew one such type, to introduce that person to him for he was very interested in meeting one such individual.
I was there and I heard that with my own ears.
Just sayin'...
I heard a version of this story where someone asked The Dalai Lama about his opinion on crazy wisdom, and he at first did not know the term at all. When the translator explained to him, he said "If it´s crazy, then it´s not wisdom", or words to that effect... :applause:

I highly doubt there can ever be such a thing as "crazy wisdom". It´s contradictio in adjecto - wisdom is the highest form of sanity, that is the complete opposite of craziness. In Buddhism, wisdom is inseparable from its outward expression, i.e. noble conduct. The stories of alleged realised masters who frequent brothels or drink heavily are only good for New Age fairy tale books.
:good:
fckw
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by fckw »

The main use of the term "crazy wisdom" is as an enabler for discourses like this one among (particularly Western) students of Vajrayana. It serves as a psychological defense function against the stress and uncertainty that comes from the common Vajrayana narrative that the guru is somehow "omniscient" and "all-benevolent". This narrative is typically taken literally (against common sense) and this then causes anxieties in front of the guru, because it lets resurface childish anxieties of the "omniscient parent". Growing up we all had to learn that parents are far from omniscient and also far from all-benevolent. Hence, we should at least try to interpret the warnings among (particularly Western) Vajrayana students against modern crazy wisdom teachers in the light of this defense function. The advantage of this defense function is to shield oneself from disappointments, as it allows to enable a more rational mindset towards one's parents. "Ah, they are neither omniscient nor all-benevolent. Hence, if something goes wrong it is not just all my own fault. And if my parents can fail and prevail, so can I."
Being confronted with one's own childish fantasies in front of the guru is an important aspect of the guru yoga, and the instruction to take the guru as a buddha, rather than a fallible human being. As one's disappointment with the fallability of the guru grows bigger over time, the student achieves a more mature and realistic self- and other-view throughout the practice. This disappointment therefore allows the student to reconcile own primary narcissistic projections on what it means "to be enlightened" or "to be a buddha oneselef" with a far more realistic view and a wider acceptance for "being humane" towards oneself and others.
This also implies that the common "real Scotsman" argument among Vajrayana students ("Yeah, but what if there is a REAL buddha showing crazy wisdom behaviour?") can be interpreted as a resistance against the reconciliation of one's own narcissistic fantasies.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by Kilaja »

According to Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche the term “Yeshe chölwa” mean craziness turned into wisdom.
fckw
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by fckw »

A second function of the term "crazy wisdom" is to employ our fantasies of what could be. As we are all inhibited beings to a greater or lesser degree (necessarily so) the vision of uninhibited behavior catches our fantasies of putting our inhibitions aside and achieving greater freedom of expression of our internal instinctual nature. From this perspective the warnings against crazy wisdom behavior among Vajrayana students can be interpreted as a warning against the delusion of uninhibited expression of one's inner instinctual nature. This warning shows two contradictory things at the same time: on the one hand it makes visible the inner fears of the Vajrayana student against his/her own instinctual nature. As this inner instinctual nature seems dangerous because it threatens the rational psychic control of us humans, it becomes necessary to issue a warning against those who seem to propagate uninhibited expression of said nature. On the other hand, the discourse is also always a discourse around the possibility (not just the impossibility) of uninhibited expression of exactly that same instinctual nature. By participating in this discourse we are forced to acknowledge our own fears of who we are, and thus the discourse itself serves as a means to confront us with ourselves.
From this perspective, the warnings must be understood less as a warning against any concrete actual figure or teacher (albeit these do appear on stage occasionally, and can be quite destructive), but rather as an attempt to not become overwhelmed by own psychic content. It is exactly for this reason that in Vajrayana we train ourselves to take that poison in homeopatic dosages that leads to liberation. As a liberated person it is no longer necessary either to issue warnings or be bothered by the warnings of others. So, to the extent that such warnings are issued, we could take this as a measurement of the degree of "unenlightenment" if we really wanted to. (But of course we have to be careful here, because the same argument can be misused to explain everything and ultimately thus nothing at all.)
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PeterC »

There is a type of conduct specified in multiple traditions for practitioners who have reached a (quite advanced) stage in which they engage in outwardly strange behavior. However this refers to the conduct of the practitioner and has nothing to do with how they teach students. I am aware of no tantra, terma etc that specifies that a teacher should engage in what appears to be abusive behavior toward the student. At this point someone usually says “milarepa/Marpa/Naropa/tilopa”, but as we know the milarepa story was mostly fictional, and in any case these people were already very experienced practitioners when they met their respective gurus.

If someone does have a reference specifically to a teaching approach, please post it. Otherwise we can safely conclude that so-called “crazy wisdom” in a student/teacher relationship is a modern invention.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

A lot of good points have been brought up, particularly in terms of warnings. As I mentioned, and this is my understanding, “crazy wisdom” is a sort of vague description for a seemingly nonsensical, perhaps contradictory way for a teacher to help a student break free of whatever self-grasping they are clinging to, particularly if (because the student is stuck in a viscous cycle psychologically) this self-grasping itself cannot be explained away using the traditional analytical approach.

The words that we use for this approach, “crazy wisdom”, are probably not the best words to use in the first place. A psychologist who uses reverse psychology wouldn’t put “crazy psychologist” on their business card.

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche mentions, medicine is also poison, depending on the dosage.
Finding a teacher who can actually, skillfully apply ‘crazy wisdom’ and not poison the pupil is extremely rare. Although I think it is a perfectly valid methodology, students should be very wary of anyone who claims to have this skill.

I think that being able to employ ‘crazy wisdom’ very much relies on having a knack for being able to quickly size someone up, to look right at them and know what they are thinking or feeling. This isn’t a particularly rare skill in itself, but it may be something that someone is “born with” in the same way that they say dogs can “smell fear”.

Con-men and hucksters have this ‘talent’ and use it all the time. Sensing another’s vulnerabilities and manipulating them is a common occurrence. It’s how politicians get supporters. But it can also be used for good, to help people.

I think that most people who have this ‘talent’ simply use it to exploit others, and certainly not to lead them to any type of Buddhist realization! It probably also means that those teachers who do have this insight or “wisdom” and who are able to help those for whom it is beneficial, are also perhaps more likely to fall into corruption themselves at some point. Being able to ‘see through’ people would, I think, make one cynical after a while.

I don’t think that people should flatly dismiss it because it isn’t for everybody, or because some teachers who were skilled at it also turned out to be creeps themselves.
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yagmort
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Re: Crazy Wisdom Question

Post by yagmort »

"crazy wisdom" is just a term invented by Trungpa. why do people feel it's necessary to elaborate on the "new age" concept is beyond me. there is no "crazy wisdom" is tantras. those who were called "nyonpas" (madmans), like Tsang Nyon Heruka, practiced what is called "trulzhug" (tib. brtul zhugs spyod pa). Trungpa used the tibetan term ye shes ’chol ba, which has nothing to do with trulzhug. trulzhug is the advanced practice consisting of 3 phases and has certain prerequisites.
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