Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

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Nalanda
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Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Nalanda »

Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow? I am only putting those two together. Not to compare one with the other but to include both old and sarma schools. So the question is the same. Within Nyingmas, is there an agreement that the Atiyoga is the highest path/system? And for the Gelugpas, is there an agreement that Anuttarayoga is the highest system/tantra?

If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra? Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

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Malcolm
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:04 pm Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow?
Yes.

If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra?
Lam rim.
Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?
Lam rim.
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conebeckham
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by conebeckham »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:04 pm Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow? I am only putting those two together. Not to compare one with the other but to include both old and sarma schools. So the question is the same. Within Nyingmas, is there an agreement that the Atiyoga is the highest path/system? And for the Gelugpas, is there an agreement that Anuttarayoga is the highest system/tantra?

If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra? Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?
Every school says they have a Highest path. Atiyoga, Mahamudra, Niruttarayogatantra, etc. etc.

To understand why people would engage with so-called "lower practice," you have to understand the "difficulty" of the "Apex Practices."

It is said that the HYT practices are quickest and easiest. But a teacher once told me that though this is indeed true, the "Quick and Easy Practices require that you work long enough, and hard enough."

:smile:

Also, most of the so-called "lower practices" done in Tibetan traditions are colored or shaped, in some way, by the view of those higher practices, especially in the Terma traditions. And it is also the case that keeping the tradition "alive" requires people maintain practices from the so-called Lower Tantras.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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lelopa
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

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:good:
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by heart »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:04 pm Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow? I am only putting those two together. Not to compare one with the other but to include both old and sarma schools. So the question is the same. Within Nyingmas, is there an agreement that the Atiyoga is the highest path/system? And for the Gelugpas, is there an agreement that Anuttarayoga is the highest system/tantra?

If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra? Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?
If your view is Ati then then whatever practice you do, high or low, actually help you develop that. I do, right now daily, both Kriya, Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga practices and it is all good.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Vasana
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Vasana »

Talk of 'highest' and 'lowest' is also conventional as far as I understand. I've heard it said that the 'highest' is what is best for the individual and their circumstances and I've also heard it said that what is ideal for an individual can change from day to day, just as the level of our motivation behind our actions and choices often changes from day to day.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Kai lord
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:04 pm If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra? Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior?
One man's poison is another man's meat. Besides all inner tantras practices are swift path. Mahayoga and anuyoga are not slow. One practitioner that enjoys doing Maha or anuyoga practice and do them without much flaws beat a practitioner that struggle with Atiyoga practices anyday.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
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yagmort
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by yagmort »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:57 am ...One practitioner that enjoys doing Maha or anuyoga practice and do them without much flaws beat a practitioner that struggle with Atiyoga practices anyday.
good point.

from my observation some western buddhists are a little obsessed with finding out "the best" practices. but imho the thing is it's not the practice what brings gold out of a practitioner, it's practitioner who brings gold out of practice.

of course we all have certain proclivities, so it's good to understand yourself so you know which approach may click with you and which will not, but otherwise "one's man treasure is another's trash" as they say.
stay open, spread love
Natan
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Natan »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:04 pm Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow? I am only putting those two together. Not to compare one with the other but to include both old and sarma schools. So the question is the same. Within Nyingmas, is there an agreement that the Atiyoga is the highest path/system? And for the Gelugpas, is there an agreement that Anuttarayoga is the highest system/tantra?

If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra? Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?
In Nyingma Dzogchen is highest. In Sarma, anuttarayogatantra is highest. While in modern times there is a lot of pleasant words from Sarma about nyingma, and many high lamas went for teachings with Nyingma lamas, historically, the Sarma community did not believe Nyingma had valid lineages and were making things up, nevermind that they also respected the Nyingma lamas for their extraordinary siddhi displays. I think that was always sort of the tension.
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Konchog1
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Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle

Post by Konchog1 »

The Lower Tantras are often practiced for the activities and mundane siddhis.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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