Sucking sickness from Phurba

Tsewang88
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Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Tsewang88 »

Hi all,

I came across the Facebook page of a Rinpoche and there was a video of him doing a sort of healing whereby he put the point of I think a phurba on the neck of someone and proceeded to "suck". I wasn't sure what he was doing until the end when he spat out a copious amount of bloody looking liquid into a bowl. I was aghast. Anyone heard of such a thing before?
Toenail
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Toenail »

can you post the video or rinpoche? Sounds shady. I have never heard of this connected to Phurba. It is common for some shamans to suck out supposed bad entities etc and it usually has a very dramatic aspect to it and is often a scam.
Miorita
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Miorita »

Usually it's a snake's venom that we hear it is being sucked out.

A case of meningitis?
Soma999
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Soma999 »

A person i know went to a philipinno healer. He extracted something from his body. He healed then from a cancer.

So those things exists and are not a scam, but there are also scams, of course. Still miracles exists, and there is much to learn from native healers.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:20 pm A person i know went to a philipinno healer. He extracted something from his body. He healed then from a cancer.

So those things exists and are not a scam, but there are also scams, of course. Still miracles exists, and there is much to learn from native healers.
Funny no-one ever relates 1st hand these things. Psychic surgery etc IS a scam. Don't be so gullible.

And this "Rinpoche" is a simple conman. Don't fall for this bullshit.
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climb-up
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by climb-up »

There is a third option, where it might both be and not be a scam (talking generally of the sucking and spitting, not the specifics of the situation the OP saw).
When Michael Harmer studied shamanism with the Jivaro (before his somewhat sketchy founding of “core shamanism”), he learned the sucking technique. The technique involved spiritually seeing an intrusion and sucking it out. During this procedure a spirit helper guards the mouth, so the entity doesn’t get sucked into the healer, and then is spit out.
The entities are not physical, and are considered real by the shaman, but a physical item (insect body for example) is placed in the mouth before the process to anchor and trap the entirely. The shaman is doing the ritual correctly and legitimately, but is also aware that it will be perceived by onlookers as though he has physically sucked an object out of the patient. That makes it easier for them to understand that something has happened.
An outsider with a skeptical view and a lack of insider knowledge might only see the deception of the shaman and dismiss the whole thing as a scam.

Not saying that the video of the OP isn’t a scam. It might be, there are many outright charlatans. Just wanted to share that there may be false dualism between something being solely genuine and something being solely fraudulent.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Soma999 »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:21 pm
Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:20 pm A person i know went to a philipinno healer. He extracted something from his body. He healed then from a cancer.

So those things exists and are not a scam, but there are also scams, of course. Still miracles exists, and there is much to learn from native healers.
Funny no-one ever relates 1st hand these things. Psychic surgery etc IS a scam. Don't be so gullible.

And this "Rinpoche" is a simple conman. Don't fall for this bullshit.
It has been testifies by medical analysis before and after.

But feel free to believe what you want.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:44 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:21 pm
Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:20 pm A person i know went to a philipinno healer. He extracted something from his body. He healed then from a cancer.

So those things exists and are not a scam, but there are also scams, of course. Still miracles exists, and there is much to learn from native healers.
Funny no-one ever relates 1st hand these things. Psychic surgery etc IS a scam. Don't be so gullible.

And this "Rinpoche" is a simple conman. Don't fall for this bullshit.
It has been testifies by medical analysis before and after.

But feel free to believe what you want.
No, there are no medicially verified claims of psychic surgery. I mean, I'm open minded, but don't be so credulous.

Also climb-up has a very good point, you can't know what the point of such a procedure is without understanding whatever the system of thought was behind it.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Miorita »

Nyingma Teachings
March 7, 2019 ·
Introduction to SXXXXXX Phurba
Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche

From the teacher Samantabhadra, within the equality of the four times — the time beyond the past, present, and future — in the place of the dharmadhatu buddhafield of Akanishtha, unmoved from the infinite, uncreated, great buddha mind, the unobstructed miraculous manifestation of the mandala of the basic nature itself arose as the form of Dorje Shonnu and consort.

From this union of nondual wisdom and means, the various wrathful ones in the ten directions and the mandala of the sons of Phurba openly emanated and were taught the hundred thousand excellent classes in the different tantras of the activity phurba.

The lineage thus starts with the great teacher Samantabhadra and passes to Vajrasattva, Vajrapani, and to Dakini Leykyi Wangmo, from whom the Brahmin Miyi Thopachen and others received it.

Then, after the Phurba tantras appeared in the world of men, the pandita Prabhahasti was able to defeat the anti-Dharma non-Buddhists of Golden Island in India, converting them into faithful Buddhists.

Acharya Garab Dorje received the actual Phurba tantra from Vajrasattva on the peak of Mount Malaya, as he states in his tantras. Acharya Hungchenkara and other awareness holders removed the accomplishment sectionii as terma from the garden of Silwatsal Sitavana, Cool Grove.

After non-Buddhists had devastated the Sandalwood Grove by fire, Acharya Padma (Guru Rinpoche) restored it to its former state, by the power of his phurba.

Vimalamitra, by brandishing his phurba, reversed the flow of the Ganges, split its upper and lower parts, and destroyed the man-eating sea monsters dwelling there. The Nepali Shri Manju at Drakmar Gongchen smashed the rocky hills to pieces and subdued the rock goblins and thieves. Similarly, the Nepalese woman Kalasiddhi struck the rock of Kargong with her phurba, displaying marks of accomplishment.

The Lady of Kharchen, Yeshe Tsogyal, brandished her phurba at an attacking wolf and caused it to stumble and fall. Having tamed the ancestral goblins, she was renowned for taming a succession of spirits. Such was the extent of her liberating activity, that she could kill and revive ravens as well as resuscitate human corpses. These and many other examples show her innumerable marks of attainment.

Tsogyal’s disciple Menu Gyalwey Nyingpo, carrying a garland of ravens, could cause them to fall to the ground, with his mystic contemplation (of Phurba). Palgyi Lodro of the Lo clan, striking the army barracks with his phurba, utterly defeated the Nepalese army. Nyag Jnana completely destroyed his brothers’ enemies. There are these and many other related tales.

The power of the Phurba practices destroys the outer enemies and obstacle makers and subdues the inner obscuring emotions, thus allowing practitioners to actualize the realization of dharmata, the inexpressible.

Once the Phurba tantras reached Tibet, Phurba became the method for pacifying obstacles, demons, and hindrances. The Phurba of Vitotama, having been brought to Nepal, pacified all obstacles immediately. In the material sense, magical expressions are actually manifested; in the subjective sense, the inconceivable blessings of liberation in the dharmadhatu are attained. As Phurba is the lord of activity of all the buddhas, Phurba masters had long, prosperous lives and were renowned far and wide for their great powers.

The great tertön Dharma King Chokgyur Lingpa has three classes of Phurba: gyū or Mahayoga, the Zabdun Phurba; lung or Anuyoga, the Lungchen Dorje Kopa Phurba; and the men-ngag or Atiyoga, this Sangtik Phurba.

Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo has the hearing lineage, called the Phrin las Phur pai gNad tig. Both Khyentse and Chokling, as explained above, actualized the inner and outer marks of attainment. Thus are the authorizations of both the profound Terma tradition and the Hearing lineage completed.

As for the Sangtik Phurba having the marks of the heruka, it contains all of a heruka’s qualities and accoutrements. He is a sambhogakaya representation with the heart of great compassion, able to liberate sentient beings.

As the quintessential Phurba, the Sangtik Phurba has been the yidam of all the Choklings. It is the Atiyoga Phurba, the Phurba of the oral instructions. The practice is very efficacious for getting rid of all obstacles, being concise and easy to do, and it contains great blessings.

Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche - Powerful Transformation - Rangjung Yeshe Publications
A phurba is not a simple phurba. By its shape it draws in specific qualities. Identify the phurba at its corect dimmension!
I have done copy-paste because I don't have Facebooka and I don't have Facebook because I do not give my consent to its owner to make money off of my back. So it can happen that I may feel dragged back to the condition of being on Facebook, but I am not.

To conclude, the correct view is related to a belief in the power of the phurba and less on the power of the sickness and associated demon that is being subdued.
Tsewang88
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Tsewang88 »

I tried to post a link but apparently it failed so the FB account name is Kunzang Dojre Rinpoche. Yes, it's spelt Dojre so easy to find.
Tata1
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Tata1 »

Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:21 pm
Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:20 pm A person i know went to a philipinno healer. He extracted something from his body. He healed then from a cancer.

So those things exists and are not a scam, but there are also scams, of course. Still miracles exists, and there is much to learn from native healers.
Funny no-one ever relates 1st hand these things. Psychic surgery etc IS a scam. Don't be so gullible.

And this "Rinpoche" is a simple conman. Don't fall for this bullshit.
What an amount of arrogance in a single post.

By the way the guy who you quoated receive the information from the guy who had the experience. So your post is kind of stupid.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:25 pm
Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:44 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:21 pm

Funny no-one ever relates 1st hand these things. Psychic surgery etc IS a scam. Don't be so gullible.

And this "Rinpoche" is a simple conman. Don't fall for this bullshit.
It has been testifies by medical analysis before and after.

But feel free to believe what you want.
No, there are no medicially verified claims of psychic surgery. I mean, I'm open minded, but don't be so credulous.

Also climb-up has a very good point, you can't know what the point of such a procedure is without understanding whatever the system of thought was behind it.
He is saying that his friend had cancer analisis before and after the procedure and he was healed. Not that there was a study of the procedure
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Soma999 »

Thank you Tata. I was wondering if i speak english.

I would say don’t try so hard to explain. Either they get it, or they don’t.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by yagmort »

Soma999 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:44 pm
It has been testifies by medical analysis before and after.

But feel free to believe what you want.
heres the old netherlands tv documentary on an indonesian healer.

he describes that his achievements come from meditation, he even mention what looks like withdrawing energy into central channel.

anyways, i dunno why people here believe realised beings can leave imprints on rocks, fly or pass through walls, but dissmiss other people can heal others by means of things they cannot rationally explain.

that being said, the Phurbu magic in op question is a scam. sadly, that happens often. i've heard that one dudjom tersar follower in dharamsala has also turned to some fishy healing performances, so i'd say the occurence of scam vs genuine healers are extremely high.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yagmort wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:14 am anyways, i dunno why people here believe realised beings can leave imprints on rocks, fly or pass through walls, but dissmiss other people can heal others by means of things they cannot rationally explain.
In other words, you are asking, if someone believes something which might be a lie, why don’t they believe something else that might be a lie. That’s actually not a logical question.

But to answer it anyway, I will tell you why:

Actually, those who unquestioningly believe miraculous legends usually have no problem believing any seemingly miraculous thing they see. And there are many Buddhists whose foundation for following Buddhism is rooted in stories of miracles, just as there are Christians whose faith that Christ’s teachings are true are somehow validated by stories of miracles. At the risk of being accused of making a sweeping generalization, I will suggest that much of the propagation of Buddhism in Culturally Chinese countries relies on belief in miracles and magic. I personally would attribute this to the influence of esoteric Taoism, which sets the bar for “legitimacy”, I.e., if Taoism can perform miracles then Buddhism has to perform even better miracles in order to compete.

Religion is just as much of a million dollar business in the Far East as it is in the United States. Perhaps even more so. This ‘Rinpoche’ appears to be working in Singapore, according to the phone number provided on his Facebook page.

There are other Buddhists who are really not concerned about miraculous legends, don’t really care if the Buddha went up to Tushita heaven and came back, or whether Bodhidharma floated on the water standing in a leaf, or Padmasambhava left footprints in stone. For them, validation comes strictly through practice, and faith comes from putting one’s teacher’s instructions into practice. This is how the Buddha instructed his disciples: test it out to see if it’s true. He also warned against taking appearances at face value.

Here are two screenshots from the video in question. On the left is Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche with a small Phurba. On the right, he is spitting out some kind of red liquid.

Unless we include the possibility (suggested previously) that this Rinpoche is already openly holding some red substance in his mouth which functions as some kind of absorbing media, the claim that this is a truly miraculous event must be based on multiple miraculous assumptions:
1. The red liquid existed in the patient’s body (perhaps with the assumption being that it was some kind of ‘bad blood’),
2. This liquid somehow leaves the patient through his neck, but without leaving any mark,
3. That this substance somehow travels through the metal of the phurba, into the mouth of this ‘Rinpoche’.

All of these steps must be accounted for. It’s not enough to just say “I know what I saw”.

His Facebook page describes him as:


“The supreme incarnation of Guru Rinpoche, the reincarnation of Venerable Longchenpa, the great yogi of Tibet, the first black wrathful Dharma master of the Dudjom Dharma system, and the contemporary great achiever - the revived Guru Gensang Dorje Rinpoche. In this life, he mainly promotes Dzogchen Law.”

Where did such credentials come from? Did he tell others that this is who he is? That doesn’t count for anything. Was he recognized by a high lama of the Dzogchen lineage? Why doesn’t it say that?

Or is he just some guy starting a new lineage, the “Dudjom Dharma System”?

In nearly every instance I have ever seen where a teacher is said to possess all these sorts of titles, that teacher has been shown to be a con man. Legitimate Rinpoches say where they’ve studied, and who their teachers are. This is very important because it is the teacher who determines that the pupil is qualified. I knew a rinpoche for many years who was recognized by very high lamas as the manifestation of one of Guru Rinpoche’s original students. He was humble and unassuming, not a show-off.

I’m not saying that there is absolutely no way that what is shown here couldn’t possibly somehow be real. But it’s up to the claimant to prove it. It’s not the obligation of anyone to blindly believe it.
The bottom line is that for every real lama who can perform miraculous acts of healing, read minds, etc. There are a thousand fakes. And videos on YouTube and Facebook are not proof of anything.

If he’s such a good healer, why are people in the video bothering to wear masks?
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:04 pm That’s actually not a logical question.
that's actually perfectly logical question.

the entire terma tradition is based on the belief that someone named Guru Padmasanbhava, who could leave imprints on the rock and do other miracles, hid many practice texts which other people are able to uncover later, sometimes those practice texts pop up in the mind of certain individuals and other people put their life to practice those teachings, like Düdjom Tersar. tell that to anyone and then say "but i don't believe Philippino on Indonesian healers can actually help people, those are scams" and see the response. don't be surprised if you'll hear the word "inconsistent"
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yagmort wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:04 pm That’s actually not a logical question.
that's actually perfectly logical question.

the entire terma tradition is based on the belief that someone named Guru Padmasanbhava, who could leave imprints on the rock and do other miracles, hid many practice texts which other people are able to uncover later, sometimes those practice texts pop up in the mind of certain individuals and other people put their life to practice those teachings, like Düdjom Tersar. tell that to anyone and then say "but i don't believe Philippino on Indonesian healers can actually help people, those are scams" and see the response. don't be surprised if you'll hear the word "inconsistent"
The story of Padmasambhava has nothing to do with why the question is illogical.
Your argument is that
If someone believes on faith that A is true,
they should therefore believe on faith that B is true, due to apparent similarities.

If that were logical, then logically everyone who believes that Bodhidharma floated on a leaf should therefore believe that Jesus walked on water, or if they believe that Buddha was born from Queen Maya’s side, they should also believe that Mary performed a virgin birth of Jesus, or that if we believe that if Padmasambhava left hidden terma texts to be found years later, then we should believe that Joseph Smith found golden tablets left by God and that Mormonism is the correct religion to follow.
But if you yourself don’t usually believe any of those other things, your argument isn’t logical.

But as I said, people who blindly believe one thing are more likely to blindly believe another thing. This has nothing to do with similarities between events in question. The reason is that they are more drawn by the concept of miracles to begin with.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

yagmort wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:03 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:04 pm That’s actually not a logical question.
that's actually perfectly logical question.

the entire terma tradition is based on the belief that someone named Guru Padmasanbhava, who could leave imprints on the rock and do other miracles, hid many practice texts which other people are able to uncover later, sometimes those practice texts pop up in the mind of certain individuals and other people put their life to practice those teachings, like Düdjom Tersar. tell that to anyone and then say "but i don't believe Philippino on Indonesian healers can actually help people, those are scams" and see the response. don't be surprised if you'll hear the word "inconsistent"
Nobody said anything about miraculous happenings, terma etc. and it’s really not our obligation to even explain ourselves on that count.

We said don’t be so credulous, have some discrimination.

Believing the possibility or even reality of miraculous, unexplainable things does not mean we should uncritically accept any such claims. That’s all people are really saying, and you guys are trying to make it some referendum on people’s faith in Dharma more generally, that’s silly.
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Re: Sucking sickness from Phurba

Post by Aryjna »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:02 am By the way the guy who you quoated receive the information from the guy who had the experience. So your post is kind of stupid.
On a general note, there are people who have all kinds of experiences. It is not uncommon that these experiences have little or nothing to do with the relatively objective reality.

As for the cancer story, we don't know if that person was a close friend or merely an acquaintance and/or whether they can be trusted to know what they're talking about. Could they understand a doctor's explanation as to the state of their cancer? Were they undergoing treatment anyway at the time/had they just undergone cancer treatment? Etc., etc.

A situation where it would be difficult to doubt such healing would be something like this:
- The person with the cancer is a close friend or family member that you spend a lot of time with
- They have just undergone an MRI, or whatever, and there clearly is a tumor.
- They go to the healer
- They take another MRI (they would likely have to pay for it themselves as medically it is unlikely there will be reason to take another one a few days later without having undergone more treatments such as chemotherapy, etc.)
- The tumor is missing

I doubt this is what happens in most cases where people say their cancer was cured by such a healer.
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