Can Devas attain enlightenment?

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Giovanni
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Giovanni »

A basic point that might be worth raising.
I spend a lot of time with students of Buddhadharma. Most of them are long time students of traditional Vajrayana teachers.
Many of them would find the idea that Devas are actual beings with an ontological reality quite …odd.
Also pretas, also fighting giants. They don’t argue about it..it just doesn’t feature.
anagarika
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm
I think one should not completely rule out the possibility of devas attaining realization. I think the issue is that they are sort of ‘stuck’ in that position, even if it’s a state of perfect meditative awareness.
Yes, this is a common arguement, and I would agree with it to an extent. Coming back to your analogy of wealth and happiness, it might be similar to a situation where someone wins a lottery. I have never won a jackpot or anything close to it, but I´ve heard it said that it´s quite often psychologically dangerous or even devastating for certain individuals (they cannot handle it). In a similar way, if someone achieves a fortunate rebirth in one of the lower sensory heavens without being well-established in the Dharma, they can of course easily fall for the illusion of this being the final goal, just as people who win a jackpot may spend all the money on trivial pleasures and don´t feel the need to grow. As for the meditative heavens, it should be clear enough that anyone who actually attains these states should already be very much elevated above sense pleasures and suchlike, and probably also established in wisdom and discerment to some degree. Again, I read the passages in the Pali nikayas that speak of the followers of other sects who obtain rebirth in the brahma realm as liable to falling to lower worlds again as a way of promoting Dharma and emphasising the necessity of insight. After all, this is the key component that distinguished Buddhism from other yogic systems. So the question of being stuck relates probably more to subtle self-view etc.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm
The human realm is in, to borrow a phrase, a “Goldilocks” range. It’s precisely because our conditions are impermanent and always changing that realization via the dharma is possible.
But then, this is a purely human point of view, isn’t it? It’s biased.
You know, it´s often talked about the "fortunate human rebirth"... But what is it actually? As you yourself noted, the range of what it means to be human is very broad. I´d argue that for the vast majority of humans that ever inhabited this planet, their birth in this sphere of existence wasn´t really fortunate (dhamma-wise at least). The chance of hearing the dharma is generally very low (the risk of not being born in the age of a Buddha, being born in a different part of the world etc.). Furthermore, the default mode of most people historically has been mere survival and constant drudgery, taking care of families, jobs, living in horrible conditions and poverty, opressed by power structures etc... Living a life in which one is actually capable of any spiritual progress has been historically very rare and is rare even nowadays, so to have a "fortunate human birth" you already have to be something close to "a deva among humans" if you know what I mean :D


PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm
Well, the Buddha appears in the form of a human in order to liberate humans, and the whole concept of liberation from samsara, as we conceive it, is a human construct to begin with.

What liberation means, defined within a deva reality, might be, to humans, a completely unimaginable construct. It’s like describing colors to someone who has never had eyesight. It might be like that. Like a dog who can smell something that occurred yesterday as if it were occurring now. We cannot experience that mental state.

Maybe all we can say is that devas cannot attain anything that we as humans would define as “liberation from samsara” or “dukkha”, but that just because we have no concept of it, doesn’t mean it isn’t a reality to some other types of beings.
The Buddha, at least from the Theravada point of view, is neither human nor deva. Let me quote AN 4.36:

Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga.[1] On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"[2]

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."
Elsewhere the Buddha is called the teacher of humans and gods, and there are also account of him teaching in heavenly realms. I would agree that the teachings for heavenly beings would probably be adapted to their situation, but the Dhamma is a universal set of laws and is not a human construct, just as kamma is not a human construct. What is constructed by humans are words and concepts and epistemological models of reality, but that is not the reality itself. The Buddha didn´t "invent" the Dhamma (as opposed to Christian god who decrees his commandments arbitrarily), but merely discovers it and puts it into words. In another sutta it is explicitly stated that the laws of Dhamma apply all the time irrespective of whether there is a Buddha around or not. In this sense, I believe there is only one liberation, but of course many ways to it and even many ways of experiencing it. But in the end it has to always end in cessation of delusion, greed and hatred, whether you are a human, a sensual deva or a brahma.
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Aemilius
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

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The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world. Celestial King Happiness Like an Ocean and a Cowl gained a passage into liberation of obtaining the pure bright body that pervades space. etc...

Celestial King Inconceivable Wisdom gained a passage into liberation of using the inconceivable expedients of the inherent nature to skillfully enter all karma. Celestial King Cakra-Navel gained a passage into liberation of expediently bringing beings to maturity by turning the Dharma wheel. etc...

Moreover, Celestial Prince Sun gained a passage into liberation of universally radiating pure light on sentient beings of the ten directions, constantly benefiting them to the ends of time. etc...

Celestial Prince Immaculate Jeweled Moon gained a passage into liberation of rejoicing profoundly from cultivating all ascetic practices. etc...

Moreover, Gandharva King Governing Nations gained a passage into liberation of gathering in all sentient beings with sovereign expedients. Gandharva King Light Resembling Trees gained a passage into liberation of everywhere seeing the adornment of all merit and virtue. etc...

Moreover, Kumbhanda King Growth and Development gained a passage into liberation of eradicating the power of all resentment and harming. Kumbhanda King Dragon Ruler gained a passage into liberation of cultivating the ocean of boundless methods of practice. ...

Moreover, Dragon King Virupaksha gained a passage into liberation of dispelling the burning agony of all those in the path of dragons. Dragon King Sagara gained a passage into liberation of manifesting the bodies of limitless sentient beings by transforming his own dragon body in a single thought. ...

Moreover, Yaksha King Vaishravana gained a passage into liberation of rescuing and protecting evil sentient beings with boundless skill-in-means. Yaksha King Sovereign Sound gained a passage into liberation of universally contemplating sentient beings, rescuing them with expedients. ...

Moreover, Mahoraga King Kind Wisdom gained a passage into liberation of helping sentient beings amass merit and virtue by using all the expedients of spiritual powers. Mahoraga King Clear, Majestic Sound gained a passage into liberation of enabling sentient beings to eradicate their afflictions and gain a cool, clear joy. ...

Moreover, Kinnara King Bright Heaven of Kind Wisdom gained a passage into liberation of universally generating happiness and joy through all deeds. Kinnara King Wonderful Floral Banner gained a passage into liberation of experiencing unsurpassed bliss of Dharma, bestowing peace and joy upon all. ...

Moreover, Garuda King Swift and Powerful gained a passage into liberation of universally contemplating the realms of sentient beings with an eye free from attachment and obstruction. Garuda King Indestructible Jeweled Crest gained a passage into liberation of universally dwelling throughout the Dharma Realm to teach and transform sentient beings. etc...

Moreover, Asura King Rahu gained a passage into liberation of appearing as a supreme and honored host for great assemblies. Asura King Vemacitra gained a passage into liberation of making appear limitlessly many eons. etc...

Moreover, Day-ruling Spirit Making Palaces Appear gained a passage into liberation of universally entering all worlds. Day-ruling Spirit Exuding Fragrance of Wisdom gained a passage into liberation of universally contemplating all sentient beings, benefiting them, making them happy and content. etc..."

several other kinds of ruling spirits are described similarly.

from http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avata ... 3.asp.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:38 pm The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world.
This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.
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Aemilius
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:38 pm The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world.
This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.
Devas live for thousands, hundred thousands and millions of years. They have a longer span of memory than humans, this is attested in the sutras, that they can remember events even from previous kalpas.

As Peter Della Santina has pointed out, Buddha Shakyamuni was conversing with devas and other nonhuman beings every night. And we (and Ananda) do not know the teachings and topics that were then spoken of or communicated.

It should be obvious that there are traditions of Dharma in the deva realms and the other non-human realms, that have come from Buddha Shakyamuni and from the hundreds and thousands of previous Buddhas, who have appeared in the this kalpa or in the previous kalpas.

For example Nagarjuna had met Nagas in a human form, who then invited him to visit their realm, which he did, and Nagarjuna was there given Perfection of Wisdom sutras that had been preserved in the Naga-realm.

There are also devas that are higher than humans in their splendour, lifespan and other qualities. This is discussed in the Larger Sukhavati vyuha sutra. Buddhism is a human centered teaching and tradition. But we don't have to be like people in North Korea, who are convinced that their country is the best in the world! Or may be we are and must be like that ?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
anagarika
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by anagarika »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am
But we don't have to be like people in North Korea, who are convinced that their country is the best in the world! Or may be we are and must be like that ?
Yes, this is exactly my point - our anthropocentric pride and presumptousness. It´s just absurd to believe that of all the possible world systems (horizontal direction) and planes of existence (vertical direction), this tiny little planet is the only one where the Dharma can be practiced and actualised, and that somehow this really mediocre human consciousness and intellect is the only one capable of attaining liberation. I have always appreciated the Buddhist advocacy of a multiverse cosmological model with a vast array of beings and states of existence, of which the human form is only one among many, many, many others... And it may very well be that this form is quite conducive to practice in general, but I cannot see it being priviledged in any way.

I know that in some schools of Buddhism these other worlds are downplayed as either irrelevant or outright non-existent (how existent is this plane, though?). The question itself might be a bit naive - the model is really about mapping mental states and levels of conscious experience from gross to subtle. At the same time, these schools tend to disparage cultivation of elated mental states, claiming that they inevitably lead to clinging and suffering. But that´s not what the Buddha taught at all - throughout the Pali canon, he is endlessly prasing jhana, samadhi, joy, positive and beautiful emotional states... And, of course, especially for lay practitioners, also recommends to strive for a fortunate rebirth, possibly in some higher realms... The aspiration for heavenly rebirth (kama bhumi) is I think explicitely discouraged only for monastics who are dedicated to achieving final liberation in this very life and from this perspective rebirth among gods is too low of a goal (but still somehow accepted as a good second prize I guess).
Giovanni
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Giovanni »

OK a hypothetical question.
If it could be shown to you beyond doubt the Deva Realm has no literal existence, what difference would they make to your life and to your practise of the Dharma? Would your whole Dharma world view collapse? Would you abandon your sadhanas?
Or would you reframe the theoretical basis of your Buddhist belief?
Personally it would make no difference at all to me.
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:55 pm OK a hypothetical question.
If it could be shown to you beyond doubt the Deva Realm has no literal existence, what difference would they make to your life and to your practise of the Dharma? Would your whole Dharma world view collapse? Would you abandon your sadhanas?
Or would you reframe the theoretical basis of your Buddhist belief?
Personally it would make no difference at all to me.
How many devas can sit on one lotus at a time?
Yeah, it really should make no difference.

I like to keep in mind, however, that when we talk about other realms, celestial beings and so on as being ‘real’ or ‘literally existing’ defining what that means always comes back eventually to having some quality “in the same way that I literally exist” and when we look at that idea within the context of the fact that no “I” can be found to literally exist in the first place, that sort of shakes up the criteria a little.

All we can say is that “devas have no more literal existence than I have. “
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:38 pm The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world.
This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.
Devas live for thousands, hundred thousands and millions of years. They have a longer span of memory than humans, this is attested in the sutras, that they can remember events even from previous kalpas.
Yes, this is all true, but they still do not have a precious human birth. All Buddhas are human beings.

The Suhṛllekha states:

Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Giovanni
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Giovanni »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:44 pm
Giovanni wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:55 pm OK a hypothetical question.
If it could be shown to you beyond doubt the Deva Realm has no literal existence, what difference would they make to your life and to your practise of the Dharma? Would your whole Dharma world view collapse? Would you abandon your sadhanas?
Or would you reframe the theoretical basis of your Buddhist belief?
Personally it would make no difference at all to me.
How many devas can sit on one lotus at a time?
Yeah, it really should make no difference.

I like to keep in mind, however, that when we talk about other realms, celestial beings and so on as being ‘real’ or ‘literally existing’ defining what that means always comes back eventually to having some quality “in the same way that I literally exist” and when we look at that idea within the context of the fact that no “I” can be found to literally exist in the first place, that sort of shakes up the criteria a little.

All we can say is that “devas have no more literal existence than I have. “
Yes…someone asked Chime Rinpoche “ Is Tara real?” He replied “She is as real as you are. The question then becomes, how real are you?”
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:51 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 pm

This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.
Devas live for thousands, hundred thousands and millions of years. They have a longer span of memory than humans, this is attested in the sutras, that they can remember events even from previous kalpas.
Yes, this is all true, but they still do not have a precious human birth. All Buddhas are human beings.

The Suhṛllekha states:

Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Is there a particular reason why is it possible to attain Buddhahood only in human form?
Maybe a physical or mental reason...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:51 pm Yes, this is all true, but they still do not have a precious human birth. All Buddhas are human beings.
It should be noted that the ‘precious’ in ‘precious human birth’ doesn’t refer to being human in general, although the conditions for that are comparatively rare. ‘Precious’ means in contrast with ‘ordinary’ and includes having a combination of features such as having full mental capacity along with good health, access to the dharma teachings, not being born among ‘barbarians’ and so on. In short, any birth where conditions are favorable for the practice of dharma and attaining realization. Is a ‘precious’ human birth.

And as a term, it’s not a value judgment. There’s nothing inherently better about being born into a Tibetan Buddhist family than there is being born into an orthodox Jewish family. But in terms of studying and practicing dharma teachings, if that’s the criteria (which in this context, it is) then that makes it “precious”. It’s just the word that’s been used traditionally. Today we might say “dharma-friendly human birth”
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:47 pm
Is there a particular reason why is it possible to attain Buddhahood only in human form?
Maybe a physical or mental reason...
We have the right mixture of happiness and suffering to form an ideal condition for attaining the path.
anagarika
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by anagarika »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:55 pm OK a hypothetical question.
If it could be shown to you beyond doubt the Deva Realm has no literal existence, what difference would they make to your life and to your practise of the Dharma? Would your whole Dharma world view collapse? Would you abandon your sadhanas?
Or would you reframe the theoretical basis of your Buddhist belief?
Personally it would make no difference at all to me.
It would and should make exactly zero difference because the cosmological model can be applied to the range of mental states that a human can experience within one lifetime. This means the threat of hellish birth or the prospect of heavenly existence would still be relevant, even if "only" on this microscale.
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Kai lord »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:47 pm Maybe a physical or mental reason...
Speaking from Vajrayana's prospective,

From Jigme Lingpa:
Without reception of empowerment,
No attainment can there be,
For that would be like wanting ghee from pressing sand.
And though one strives in teaching, learning, meditation,
One will go to hell.
While those who have empowerment
Are the Buddhas heirs.
Occupants of the desire realm, common beings,
Experience four levels of desire.
And thus, according to what purifies
And what is to be purified,
There are four empowerments.

It is said that the foundation for the practice of all the highest tantras is the possession of a body belonging to the desire realm and In practice, however, the appropriate vessels are only those beings whose bodies are endowed with the six elements, posses father and mother essences and all manifest supports for empowerment, specifically that of a human being
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:51 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 pm

This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.
Devas live for thousands, hundred thousands and millions of years. They have a longer span of memory than humans, this is attested in the sutras, that they can remember events even from previous kalpas.
Yes, this is all true, but they still do not have a precious human birth. All Buddhas are human beings.

The Suhṛllekha states:

Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings,
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom.
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.
Shakyamuni says in the Dona sutta:

"Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga. On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

Translator Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments this topic:
"The Buddha's refusal to identify himself as a human being relates to a point made throughout the Canon, that an awakened person cannot be defined in any way at all. On this point, see MN 72, SN 22.85, SN 22.86, ... This is why he/she is unsmeared by the world (loka), like the lotus unsmeared by water."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This is "not defined at all" is not wholly true, because there are for example the 18 āveṇika[buddha]dharmas:

"In Sanskrit and Pāli, “unshared factors”; special qualities that are unique to the buddhas. They usually appear in a list of eighteen (aṣṭādaśa āveṇikā buddhadharmāḥ): (1)–(2) the buddhas never make a physical or verbal mistake; (3) their mindfulness never diminishes; (4) they have no perception of difference; (5) they are free from discursiveness; (6) their equanimity is not due to a lack of discernment; (7)–(12) they do not regress in their devotion, perseverance, recollection, concentration, wisdom, or liberation; (13)–(15) all their physical, verbal, and mental actions are preceded and followed by gnosis; and (16)–(18) they enter into the perception of the gnosis that is unobstructed and unimpeded with respect to the past, future, and present."
(The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism; Robert E. Buswell and Donald S. Lopez)


According to Buddhism, you can go and find out the matter of Devas yourself (through the realisation of Dharma). You should be able to see how all things arise and how they exist in any of the worlds of becoming and in the worlds beyond becoming. Someone could perhaps acquire new and fresh knowledge concerning the deva realms, and about the nature of devas. But may be this newly acquired knowledge would shatter some or most of the age old stories that have been repeated for millennia?

If Devas could not become enlightened, why would they appear in the audience of Mahayana sutras and be recipients of the Mahayana sutras? And why would Shakyamuni be called Teacher of Gods and Humans in the Tripitaka?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:27 am
If Devas could not become enlightened, why would they appear in the audience of Mahayana sutras and be recipients of the Mahayana sutras? And why would Shakyamuni be called Teacher of Gods and Humans in the Tripitaka?
Is everyone who appears in the retinue of a Mahayana sutra awakened or not?
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Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:09 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:27 am
If Devas could not become enlightened, why would they appear in the audience of Mahayana sutras and be recipients of the Mahayana sutras? And why would Shakyamuni be called Teacher of Gods and Humans in the Tripitaka?
Is everyone who appears in the retinue of a Mahayana sutra awakened or not?
They are not. But there are Mahayana sutras, other than the above mentioned Avatamsaka sutra, which say that devas have attained enlightenment, like for example the Sutra of Innumerable Meanings.
It seems that the devas have to be abiding in the lower heavens to be able do that. Also, why would the attainment of dhyana help you in the progress on the Buddhist path, if not any one of the devas, who abide in a state of dhyana, can attain insight or vipashyana? (which equals attaining different stages of enlightenment).

The Flower Adornment Sutra describes in some detail how one hundred or more deities and nonhuman beings attain or have attained liberation.
Here with commentary http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_2.asp.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by Giovanni »

One of my teachers, a well known Tibetan teacher once said to us all during a teaching, I will not name him because it is out of context and If you find it hard to process I would rather you dismissed me rather than him..
“ Once you are established in your Dharma practice it should make no difference to you if even Shakyamuni himself never existed”.
He went on to say. “ I am convinced that he did exist, but that statement still stands”.
Our Dharma is not dependant on historicity. It is existential.
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?

Post by anagarika »

Giovanni wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:59 am One of my teachers, a well known Tibetan teacher once said to us all during a teaching, I will not name him because it is out of context and If you find it hard to process I would rather you dismissed me rather than him..
“ Once you are established in your Dharma practice it should make no difference to you if even Shakyamuni himself never existed”.
He went on to say. “ I am convinced that he did exist, but that statement still stands”.
Our Dharma is not dependant on historicity. It is existential.
:good:

Yes, the 4 noble truths are not a human construct (the verbal expression of them is, but the causality behind them, such as that trsna is the cause of suffering, is not). This universe is causal in nature, but not "Buddhist".
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