Bardo Thodol Question

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Muddy343
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:50 am

Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Muddy343 »

Is bardo thodol meant only for vajra practitioners?
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

It’s a description and instructions.
What do you mean exactly by “meant for”?
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:11 am Is bardo thodol meant only for vajra practitioners?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Muddy343
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:50 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Muddy343 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:36 am It’s a description and instructions.
What do you mean exactly by “meant for”?
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:11 am Is bardo thodol meant only for vajra practitioners?
what I mean is the text meant for exclusively vajrayana practitioners on how to deal with death and the afterlife.
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

afaik one needs the transmissions of the Shitro of Karma Lingpa.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Sādhaka »

From the Elio Guarisco translation wrote:”This teaching is called the Great Liberation through Hearing because even those who have committed the five inexpiable crimes will certainly attain liberation on hearing the recitation of its words. Therefore, read it aloud in public places. The text should be circulated. Since awareness becomes nine times clearer during the intermediate state, even if this teaching is heard only once and even if its meaning is not comprehended, at the moment of death it will be remembered without a single word forgotten. For this reason, it should be read aloud to everyone during their lifetime. Read it aloud next to the pillow of those who are sick, next to the bodies of the dead. It should be spread near and far.”
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:15 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:36 am It’s a description and instructions.
What do you mean exactly by “meant for”?
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:11 am Is bardo thodol meant only for vajra practitioners?
what I mean is the text meant for exclusively vajrayana practitioners on how to deal with death and the afterlife.


It depends on which side of the death bardo you’re on: the inside or the outside. In other words, if you’re the dead person, it doesn’t matter. If you’re the one reading the text aloud, then it may require being a Vajrayana practitioner.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Archie2009
Posts: 1585
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Archie2009 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:04 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:15 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:36 am It’s a description and instructions.
What do you mean exactly by “meant for”?

what I mean is the text meant for exclusively vajrayana practitioners on how to deal with death and the afterlife.


It depends on which side of the death bardo you’re on: the inside or the outside. In other words, if you’re the dead person, it doesn’t matter. If you’re the one reading the text aloud, then it may require being a Vajrayana practitioner.
What would you suggest would the result be then? Do you really think a deceased non-practitioner without any Dzogchen empowerment and instruction would achieve the same result as a practitioner being liberated in the bardos? That does not make any sense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And finding liberation isn't as easy as taking a sip of water, even if you want to because you are thirsty, unless you have the karma for it.
fckw
Posts: 821
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by fckw »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:22 am What would you suggest would the result be then? Do you really think a deceased non-practitioner without any Dzogchen empowerment and instruction would achieve the same result as a practitioner being liberated in the bardos? That does not make any sense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And finding liberation isn't as easy as taking a sip of water, even if you want to because you are thirsty, unless you have the karma for it.
It's really only for those lucky few who happened to be practitioners of the highest caliber, and that was certified by their master. Plus, liberation is also for those lucky few who just so happened to stumble upon someone in a public place reading the bardo thodol aloud.

(Some people really call themselves to be practitioners of ati yoga, but cling to the view of the sutra path. It's beyond my understanding why.)
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:22 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:04 am
It depends on which side of the death bardo you’re on: the inside or the outside. In other words, if you’re the dead person, it doesn’t matter. If you’re the one reading the text aloud, then it may require being a Vajrayana practitioner.
What would you suggest would the result be then? Do you really think a deceased non-practitioner without any Dzogchen empowerment and instruction would achieve the same result as a practitioner being liberated in the bardos? That does not make any sense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And finding liberation isn't as easy as taking a sip of water, even if you want to because you are thirsty, unless you have the karma for it.
I don’t understand your argument:
1. The bardo practices are not limited to Dzogchen practitioners to begin with.

2. Even Himalayan countries, the practice of reciting or reading the BT to the deceased is probably performed more often for Buddhists who were not learned or active practitioners than for those who were. Most Himalayan ‘Buddhists’ are not active practitioners. They may do prostrations, make offerings, get lama blessings and perhaps listen to teachings on special occasions. But most do not spend time in meditation, visualization, study, etc. otherwise they would become monks or nuns.

3. In terms of ‘having the karma for it’, you are partly correct. It is probably pointless to tell a deer who is standing on a dark highway to stop staring at the headlights and get off the road. A deer simply doesn’t have the capacity (although simply yelling at it might make a difference).

Similarly, telling any deceased person what to do when they see the lights may not make any difference, but we can assume that if someone had already studied the BT During their lifetime, they will have a better chance of responding to the prompts soon after they are dead.

But unless you can read the mind of the deceased person, you can’t really know that they won’t respond accordingly. A frightening hallucination is still frightening whether one is a practitioner or not. You can’t guarantee a “same result” of anything.

There’s a tendency to regard Buddhist teachings like a cookie recipe: if everyone follows the instructions exactly, everyone will end up with the same result. Dharma practice doesn’t really work that way. There are a lot more conditions involved.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:22 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:04 am
Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:15 am what I mean is the text meant for exclusively vajrayana practitioners on how to deal with death and the afterlife.


It depends on which side of the death bardo you’re on: the inside or the outside. In other words, if you’re the dead person, it doesn’t matter. If you’re the one reading the text aloud, then it may require being a Vajrayana practitioner.
What would you suggest would the result be then? Do you really think a deceased non-practitioner without any Dzogchen empowerment and instruction would achieve the same result as a practitioner being liberated in the bardos? That does not make any sense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. And finding liberation isn't as easy as taking a sip of water, even if you want to because you are thirsty, unless you have the karma for it.
if i may, yes, even if those without transmission of the shitro won't see the shitro bardos, they go directly into the bardos of rebirth. the instructions for getting a good rebirth do definitely help.

it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.

it's such a beautiful teaching. it really is.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Sādhaka »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:00 am
From the Elio Guarisco translation wrote:”This teaching is called the Great Liberation through Hearing because even those who have committed the five inexpiable crimes will certainly attain liberation on hearing the recitation of its words.

“Therefore, read it aloud in public places. The text should be circulated. Since awareness becomes nine times clearer during the intermediate state, even if this teaching is heard only once and even if its meaning is not comprehended, at the moment of death it will be remembered without a single word forgotten. For this reason, it should be read aloud to everyone during their lifetime.

Read it aloud next to the pillow of those who are sick, next to the bodies of the dead. It should be spread near and far.

Just to add some emphasis^.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by heart »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
It sounds weird because it just isn't true. There are many teachings that have the purpose to lead the person that dies and remind them how to practice in the Tibetan tradition. You read them to the dead person for them to remember the teachings, the practice and so on. Unless you are realised I doubt you can help others.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Sādhaka »

Another excerpt from Elio Guarisco’s translation (when I copy & pasted the following, it pasted as one big paragraph, so I separated the paragraphs based on guessing, therefore the paragraphing likely is not the same as in the actual book):

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu wrote:In this phase, a close friend, dharma teacher, or practitioner of the sacred teaching should read slowly and clearly The Tibetan Book of the Dead at the dead person’s house. This text enables the deceased to recognize that he or she is dead, that death is everyone’s inevitable fate, and that therefore it is useless to be anguished and, moreover, to accumulate negative actions through this attachment and anger.

In particular, this book, like a guide that points out the path to a traveler who does not know the way, directly introduces the visions of the intermediate state and their meanings. If the deceased was Tibetan or understood the Tibetan language, The Tibetan Book of the Dead should be read in Tibetan. If the dead person spoke English, Russian, or another language, the book should be read in the appropriate mother tongue; this point is of fundamental importance. This is because, during the first week of the intermediate state, the dead person still possesses strong predispositions tied to the nationality, language, and other aspects of the culture to which he or she belonged. Thus knowing how to adapt to the deceased’s frame of mind is of decisive importance.

In the intermediate state of rebirth we possess a body similar to the one we have in dreams, possessing various qualities such as clairvoyance and unimpeded miraculous powers like the capacity to arrive unhindered almost everywhere and to be instantaneously in any place we desire. Beings in this state have a mind seven times clearer than when alive. They possess all their senses and can be seen by those who possess clairvoyance. Recollecting the teachings they received, they can liberate themselves or do so with the help of others, as when a master endowed with knowledge and experience summons the consciousness of a deceased person and imparts instructions to that being.

At this time, if in life we placed trust in the knowledge of the real condition to which we were introduced by an authentic master and had even a slight degree of experience, by simply remembering the pure dimensions of the manifestations of the buddhas,55 and by virtue of the reawakening of our past inclinations, we will have the good fortune to be reborn in the Pure Land of Perfect Joy, in the Glorious Pure Land, in the Pure Land of the Lotus Flower Pagoda, or in the Pure Land of Complete and Perfect Action.56

In general, the intermediate state lasts forty-nine days, that is, the period from the first to the seventh week after death. However, the deceased may also take a new birth in the first or second week, and so on, depending on individual predispositions from past actions. At the end of each week from the first week onward, what is called the little death occurs, consisting of the mental body of the intermediate state returning into temporary unconsciousness, from which, after some time, it reemerges. At this weekly recurrence, the introduction of the Great Liberation through Hearing in the Intermediate States should be read to the deceased.

In Tibet, offerings made to the dead customarily are suitable for their immaterial condition: incense and perfumes are burned, and strongly flavored food, often blended with sacred substances, is offered in order to provide a cause for liberation. In the course of each week, habitual tendencies, karma from the previous life, whether human or other, become fainter. Without a material body, the person has no shadow and no material obstacles, can perform miraculous deeds, no longer depends on the sense organs, and possesses partial clairvoyance. Moreover, various signs manifest: the six uncertainties, the four terrifying enemies, the three terrible abysses, and others.57 At this stage, most dead people recognize that they are in the intermediate state of rebirth.

Those who have no awareness of the nature of human life and have not understood the meaning of the introduction to The Tibetan Book of the Dead will undergo various sufferings, such as finding themselves alone and abandoned in the intermediate state, having left behind the wealth accumulated during their lives as well as relatives and friends, feeling ever more hatred when they understand through a certain degree of clairvoyance the thoughts of friends and relatives and of those who detested them. The actions accumulated through these experiences can become the causal factor that determines the circumstances of rebirth.

In any case, from the fourth week onward the propensities from the karma of past actions that will determine the rebirth of the deceased become stronger, and the visions and impressions connected with them become more intense. Thus it is extremely important in this phase for the dead person never to lose the continuity of presence and awareness and to recall the essential points introduced in The Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

heart wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:59 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
It sounds weird because it just isn't true. There are many teachings that have the purpose to lead the person that dies and remind them how to practice in the Tibetan tradition. You read them to the dead person for them to remember the teachings, the practice and so on. Unless you are realised I doubt you can help others.
i guess it ain't true for your case.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
What is your source for this?
Where do you meet these dead people?
The bardo isn’t a place.
It’s a state of consciousness, a gap between an individual’s lifetime experiences.
It’s not like Christian ‘Limbo’.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by heart »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:40 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:59 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
It sounds weird because it just isn't true. There are many teachings that have the purpose to lead the person that dies and remind them how to practice in the Tibetan tradition. You read them to the dead person for them to remember the teachings, the practice and so on. Unless you are realised I doubt you can help others.
i guess it ain't true for your case.
Not true for anyone Javier.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by climb-up »

Muddy343 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:11 am Is bardo thodol meant only for vajra practitioners?
There are contrasting opinion above, and Robert Thurman had a book and course stating that it is for everyone, but my understanding is…
…yes.

It’s for people who have received teachings in life, as a reminder for their time in the Bardo.
ChNN said that if you have not received the transmission of the peaceful and wrathful deities, then you won’t experience them as such in the bardo. He also said that most Tibetans have received an empowerment.
You can have received the empowerment and heard they teachings, but not practiced them or understood them, in this case your seven times capacity will truly help.

There are many other practices appropriate for people without training or empowerments. Shitro is related to the Bardo Thodrol and can done on behalf of the deceased. Chang Chog can as well and Dzogchen practitioners can perform the inner rushen practice for the deceased and (for DC people) sing the song of the vajra. Those who have received signs can also perform phowa.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

heart wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:57 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:40 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:59 am

It sounds weird because it just isn't true. There are many teachings that have the purpose to lead the person that dies and remind them how to practice in the Tibetan tradition. You read them to the dead person for them to remember the teachings, the practice and so on. Unless you are realised I doubt you can help others.
i guess it ain't true for your case.
Not true for anyone Javier.
Well, i know it is true, i can refute what you supose to know. Just becuse you can't it doesn't mean everyone can't.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:11 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
What is your source for this?
Where do you meet these dead people?
The bardo isn’t a place.
It’s a state of consciousness, a gap between an individual’s lifetime experiences.
It’s not like Christian ‘Limbo’.
Source are my own eyes. Bardo happens everywhere to everyone. Dead people can see each other.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:28 pm Source are my own eyes. Bardo happens everywhere to everyone. Dead people can see each other.
1. So, you are dead? I’m surprised to find out there is internet service where you are.

2. All sorts of realistic visions occur in the bardo state. If someone who is dead believes that they are talking to other dead people and don’t realize it an hallucination, it means they didn’t study the BT enough or aren’t able to effectively recall it when it’s actually needed, because the BT itself is basically all about remembering that the things you encounter in the bardo are all in your own mind. So, even if you were to claim that you remember things that happened the last time you were dead, according to the BT such a claim doesn’t mean anything.

3. “Bardo” means gap. Of course bardos occur constantly. The BT isn’t referring to that.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”