Bardo Thodol Question

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Sādhaka
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Sādhaka »

Just to be clear, my first post in this thread is a quote from the Bardo text itself; and my third post is quoting Chögyal Namkhai Norbu in his introduction to Elio Guarisco’s translation of the text.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josef
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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jet.urgyen wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:40 pm
heart wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:59 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:00 pm it might sound weird but, if once in your many many lifetimes you received bardo instructions, then after you die you will always remember them, and also you can tell other dead people what to do, because they see you and they ask you how to get a good rebirth so they know what to do when the signs arises.
It sounds weird because it just isn't true. There are many teachings that have the purpose to lead the person that dies and remind them how to practice in the Tibetan tradition. You read them to the dead person for them to remember the teachings, the practice and so on. Unless you are realised I doubt you can help others.
i guess it ain't true for your case.
If this were true none of us would be having this conversation.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
jet.urgyen
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by jet.urgyen »

guys you have a very limited view. but it's fine.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:36 am guys you have a very limited view. but it's fine.
Only limited in terms of accepting very questionable statements that aren’t supported by any reliable references. I think most here would also refute the statement that The Buddha blew popcorn out of his nose, if someone posted that.
But you’re free to make up whatever you like.
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Josef »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:44 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:36 am guys you have a very limited view. but it's fine.
Only limited in terms of accepting very questionable statements that aren’t supported by any reliable references. I think most here would also refute the statement that The Buddha blew popcorn out of his nose, if someone posted that.
But you’re free to make up whatever you like.
It's also just doesnt make any sense. If we all were able to recall bardo instructions from previous lives we would have, and thus would be liberated, and most likely not putting our efforts into internet forum debates.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by Natan »

Bardo Thodrol is very special. One can be led to enlightenment at death without empowerment by a lama. It lies in a gray area. It's always best to get a transmission. But if you pick up the practices in the text related with Vajrasattva and Guhyagarbha you can recite them with devotion and it's wonderful. Okay?
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Sādhaka
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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Natan wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:29 pm Bardo Thodrol is very special. One can be led to enlightenment at death without empowerment by a lama. It lies in a gray area. It's always best to get a transmission. But if you pick up the practices in the text related with Vajrasattva and Guhyagarbha you can recite them with devotion and it's wonderful. Okay?

Yeah it is unique in that sense, almost like Pith Instructions that non-Initiates are allowed to hear.

It seems that the Hundred-Syllable, the Song of the Vajra, and the Aspiration of Samantabhadra, are all Mantras that can be recited to those who haven’t received Empowerment, as a cause of eventual Liberation for them, even if there are some conditions that may apply on the part of the reciter….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:35 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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Sādhaka wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:13 am
Natan wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:29 pm Bardo Thodrol is very special. One can be led to enlightenment at death without empowerment by a lama. It lies in a gray area. It's always best to get a transmission. But if you pick up the practices in the text related with Vajrasattva and Guhyagarbha you can recite them with devotion and it's wonderful. Okay?

Yeah it is unique in that sense, almost like Pith Instructions that non-Initiates are allowed to hear.

It seems that the Hundred-Syllable, the Song of the Vajra, and the Aspiration of Samantabhadra, are all Mantras that can be recited to those who haven’t received Empowerment, as a cause of eventual Liberation for them, even if there are some conditions that may apply on the part of the reciter….
I've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.

I have never heard that the Song of the Vajra is for anyone to sing.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 am I've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.
Dr. Hun Lye will usually make cautionary statements about sharing Buddhist teachings with non Buddhists so that they aren’t misinterpreted or misunderstood. I’ll have to listen to that podcast. Do you recall his explanation for that advice?
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:31 am
climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 am I've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.
Dr. Hun Lye will usually make cautionary statements about sharing Buddhist teachings with non Buddhists so that they aren’t misinterpreted or misunderstood. I’ll have to listen to that podcast. Do you recall his explanation for that advice?
It was at the end of part 6 of the karma series.
It wasn’t even for non-Buddhists, he was just saying that reading about and studying the dissolutions and bardos if you’re not ready and developed will only lead to anxiety and difficulties.
He said that, of course, if you’re a practitioner who received the teachings and was doing specific practices, etc. then it’s good to do.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by climb-up »

I know that Malcolm is more than capable of talking for himself, but in this other thread on the BT, he characterizes it as a guide for Dzogchen practitioners. Which is also how I understood it.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=39103
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person. Depending on circumstances, it may also be negative for those left behind. What if the person was brought up in a monotheistic faith? Do you think a ritual Jangchok or reading the BakChak Rangdrol would be a good idea?

If you are a Vajrayana practitioner, the nature of the elements, skandhas, etc. will have been pointed out to you through empowerment. That is the real purpose of the Bardo practices, the BakChak Rangdrol, reading the Bardo Thodol, etc.

If you have not had an empowerment that illuminates these things, I don't see any benefit, and potentially I think you could cause problems.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:15 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:31 am
climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 am I've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.
Dr. Hun Lye will usually make cautionary statements about sharing Buddhist teachings with non Buddhists so that they aren’t misinterpreted or misunderstood. I’ll have to listen to that podcast. Do you recall his explanation for that advice?
It was at the end of part 6 of the karma series.
It wasn’t even for non-Buddhists, he was just saying that reading about and studying the dissolutions and bardos if you’re not ready and developed will only lead to anxiety and difficulties.
He said that, of course, if you’re a practitioner who received the teachings and was doing specific practices, etc. then it’s good to do.
I’ve listened and enjoyed his teachings a lot. That sounds pretty much like what I’d expect him to say.

I think the question here is not about a living non-Buddhist reading or studying the BT, but whether it is beneficial to read it to a deceased non-Buddhist.

And a point I made earlier is that probably a large percentage of “Buddhists” in the world, even in the Himalayas, have never really studied the teachings. It is probably similar to the percentage of “Christians” who have never studied the Bible.
So, if the issue is that the deceased Buddhist would be unfamiliar with the text, would reading the BT be beneficial or not?
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:56 pm Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person.
Which one is “that” person?
The reader or the deceased?
If the deceased,
What if it is the deceased teenage son of a lama, technically Vajrayana, raised in a devotional home but more into sports?

In other words, defining labels can be vague.
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:59 pm
climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:15 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:31 am
Dr. Hun Lye will usually make cautionary statements about sharing Buddhist teachings with non Buddhists so that they aren’t misinterpreted or misunderstood. I’ll have to listen to that podcast. Do you recall his explanation for that advice?
It was at the end of part 6 of the karma series.
It wasn’t even for non-Buddhists, he was just saying that reading about and studying the dissolutions and bardos if you’re not ready and developed will only lead to anxiety and difficulties.
He said that, of course, if you’re a practitioner who received the teachings and was doing specific practices, etc. then it’s good to do.
I’ve listened and enjoyed his teachings a lot. That sounds pretty much like what I’d expect him to say.

I think the question here is not about a living non-Buddhist reading or studying the BT, but whether it is beneficial to read it to a deceased non-Buddhist.

And a point I made earlier is that probably a large percentage of “Buddhists” in the world, even in the Himalayas, have never really studied the teachings. It is probably similar to the percentage of “Christians” who have never studied the Bible.
So, if the issue is that the deceased Buddhist would be unfamiliar with the text, would reading the BT be beneficial or not?
Possibly, but he also says that for a dying person (who has not trained and attained a level to practice appropriately), it’s better not to read them anything, but to reassure them that it’s going to be ok (so that they don’t stress and freak out more, and thus generate more difficult karma).
But still, that was for a dying person. Maybe he didn’t mention either way someone already dead.

In terms of the Buddhist world. ChNN mentioned once that without receiving an initiation, the bardo visions would not arise as described with the peaceful and wrathful deities, etc. (ie. That is not how the experience would be perceived), but he also stated that it just so happened that most people in Tibet would historically have received some sort of empowerment.
My understanding from this (and this part is not from ChNN) is that by receiving empowerment and teachings, even if they didn’t understand or practice them, the seed has been planted. Now the conditions are there for the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities and, with the 7x clarity of the bardo, there is a chance of liberation or a positive rebirth.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:56 pm Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person. Depending on circumstances, it may also be negative for those left behind. What if the person was brought up in a monotheistic faith? Do you think a ritual Jangchok or reading the BakChak Rangdrol would be a good idea?

If you are a Vajrayana practitioner, the nature of the elements, skandhas, etc. will have been pointed out to you through empowerment. That is the real purpose of the Bardo practices, the BakChak Rangdrol, reading the Bardo Thodol, etc.

If you have not had an empowerment that illuminates these things, I don't see any benefit, and potentially I think you could cause problems.
That is my understanding as well.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 amI've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.

I have never heard that the Song of the Vajra is for anyone to sing.

Then how would you interpret this:


Sādhaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:00 am
From the Elio Guarisco translation wrote:”This teaching is called the Great Liberation through Hearing because even those who have committed the five inexpiable crimes will certainly attain liberation on hearing the recitation of its words.

Therefore, read it aloud in public places. The text should be circulated. Since awareness becomes nine times clearer during the intermediate state, even if this teaching is heard only once and even if its meaning is not comprehended, at the moment of death it will be remembered without a single word forgotten. For this reason, it should be read aloud to everyone during their lifetime.

“Read it aloud next to the pillow of those who are sick, next to the bodies of the dead. It should be spread near and far.

Also I didn’t say that the Song of the Vajra is for just anyone to sing. However I remember ChNNR saying that it—and the Hundred-Syllable—can be recited to sentient beings who don’t have Empowerment as a cause for their eventual Liberation.

Although I think that for this to work for them, one would have to have the capacity to recite it while simultaneously being integrated in a state of Samadhi.
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:56 pm Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person. Depending on circumstances, it may also be negative for those left behind. What if the person was brought up in a monotheistic faith? Do you think a ritual Jangchok or reading the BakChak Rangdrol would be a good idea?
I, and other of Dzongsar Khyentse's disciples, do jangchog for all those that are dead. Pretty sure it doesn't hurt.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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heart wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:44 pm
conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:56 pm Honestly, I think reading the Bardo Thodol to someone who is not Vajrayana is a waste of time for that person. Depending on circumstances, it may also be negative for those left behind. What if the person was brought up in a monotheistic faith? Do you think a ritual Jangchok or reading the BakChak Rangdrol would be a good idea?
I, and other of Dzongsar Khyentse's disciples, do jangchog for all those that are dead. Pretty sure it doesn't hurt.
Well, yes....if you do it remotely, not at the side of the corpse, with family members present, I think it's fine. Great, in fact.

I have also done that. But I have done Jangchoks for friends, at bedside, at funerals, etc. Only when those people were Vajrayana Buddhists.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Bardo Thodol Question

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Sādhaka wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:26 pm
climb-up wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:42 amI've stated above that I don't think this is the case with the bardo thodol, and just listened to a urbandharmaNC podcast on karma where the teacher recommends against hearing any bardo teachings if one isn't a practitioner.

I have never heard that the Song of the Vajra is for anyone to sing.

Then how would you interpret this:


Sādhaka wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:00 am
From the Elio Guarisco translation wrote:”This teaching is called the Great Liberation through Hearing because even those who have committed the five inexpiable crimes will certainly attain liberation on hearing the recitation of its words.

Therefore, read it aloud in public places. The text should be circulated. Since awareness becomes nine times clearer during the intermediate state, even if this teaching is heard only once and even if its meaning is not comprehended, at the moment of death it will be remembered without a single word forgotten. For this reason, it should be read aloud to everyone during their lifetime.

“Read it aloud next to the pillow of those who are sick, next to the bodies of the dead. It should be spread near and far.
I don’t know how to interpret other than it contradicts what I’ve been taught.
If someone hears it once from a teacher in their lifetime, that makes sense.
In the cultural context the ChNN describes it might also make sense to read it to anyone, if anyone can be assumed to age. Received an empowerment at some point.

Also I didn’t say that the Song of the Vajra is for just anyone to sing. However I remember ChNNR saying that it—and the Hundred-Syllable—can be recited to sentient beings who don’t have Empowerment as a cause for their eventual Liberation.

Although I think that for this to work for them, one would have to have the capacity to recite it while simultaneously being integrated in a state of Samadhi.
Oh, I misread.
Yes’s of course the SoV can be sung to non-practitioners. Very meritoriously!
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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