Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Kai lord
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kai lord »

Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,

It would appear the above requirement is not essential or critical.
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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:53 am
Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,

It would appear the above requirement is not essential or critical.
Or maybe it is? :smile: When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am ... that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
But the question remains: How do you, as a student, figure out if your (potential) teacher has reached the 2nd or 3rd vision? I imagine most people won't ask, and probably most Lamas won't answer either.
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Kai lord
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kai lord »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:53 am
Arnoud wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:20 am Besides the general requirements of a Vajra master, there seem to be two views on when one can teach Dzogchen:

1. Having reached the 3rd Thogal vision.
Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,

It would appear the above requirement is not essential or critical.
Or maybe it is? :smile: When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
Its unlikely all teachers of Dzogchen have already entered into years of retreat on Thogal specifically just to develop those visions before they taught their first lesson on dzogchen.
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by jet.urgyen »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:02 am
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am ... that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
But the question remains: How do you, as a student, figure out if your (potential) teacher has reached the 2nd or 3rd vision? I imagine most people won't ask, and probably most Lamas won't answer either.
maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not :shrug:
true dharma is inexpressible.

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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

jet.urgyen wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:00 pm maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not :shrug:
Could be. Then the person in question only has to decide which texts to follow: Those that say the 3rd vision is necessary, those that say the 2nd vision is necessary, or those texts that say having no more doubts about one's understanding of Trekchö/nature of mind is enough to qualify as a teacher. Tough decision :thinking:
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by jet.urgyen »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:52 pm
jet.urgyen wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:00 pm maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not :shrug:
Could be. Then the person in question only has to decide which texts to follow: Those that say the 3rd vision is necessary, those that say the 2nd vision is necessary, or those texts that say having no more doubts about one's understanding of Trekchö/nature of mind is enough to qualify as a teacher. Tough decision :thinking:
if you are asking me, i think this are just nonesenses, is just not practical. if one is lucky enough to have a teacher that has any of those, to me, is more than sufficient. normally one doesn't have the clairvoyance to check such things, certainty comes only with experience.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Lingpupa
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Lingpupa »

At least it's pleasing to see that the "having received dzogchen teaching trumps ethics and/or learning" position is not getting a lot of support here.
All best wishes

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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:02 am
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am ... that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
But the question remains: How do you, as a student, figure out if your (potential) teacher has reached the 2nd or 3rd vision? I imagine most people won't ask, and probably most Lamas won't answer either.
I think that those are instructions to the master rather than the disciple. Of course you can't know but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:16 am
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:53 am

Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,

It would appear the above requirement is not essential or critical.
Or maybe it is? :smile: When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
Its unlikely all teachers of Dzogchen have already entered into years of retreat on Thogal specifically just to develop those visions before they taught their first lesson on dzogchen.
I think it is unlikely that all masters that teach Dzogchen are qualified to do so.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Vasana »

Another criterion might be if their teacher authorized them.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:03 pm ...but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Kai lord
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kai lord »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:07 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:16 am
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 am

Or maybe it is? :smile: When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
Its unlikely all teachers of Dzogchen have already entered into years of retreat on Thogal specifically just to develop those visions before they taught their first lesson on dzogchen.
I think it is unlikely that all masters that teach Dzogchen are qualified to do so.
Fortunately we can leave that to the Dharmapalas of the terma cycles to throw various obstacles in front of those who they deem unworthy to teach. Authentic teachers also tend to share the companionship and friendship of other authentic teachers, making easier for newcomers to spot.

For my part, I am busy ensuring that I remain qualified enough as a student. :rolling:
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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:03 pm ...but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
That seems unlikely. But you could experience something that you then would think was DI.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:36 pm
Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:03 pm ...but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
That seems unlikely. But you could experience something that you then would think was DI.
I also can't imagine that you can receive real DI from an unqualified teacher. But if that's the case, then your advice is rather problematic, because you can have all the confidence, faith and devotion you want, but if the teacher isn't qualified, it will not be good, but rather it will lead you completely astray.
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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heart
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:04 pm
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:36 pm
Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:49 pm

Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
That seems unlikely. But you could experience something that you then would think was DI.
I also can't imagine that you can receive real DI from an unqualified teacher. But if that's the case, then your advice is rather problematic, because you can have all the confidence, faith and devotion you want, but if the teacher isn't qualified, it will not be good, but rather it will lead you completely astray.
You got a better advice? Be careful about who you put your faith in, what else is there to say?
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Dechen Norbu »

It's not that different than finding someone qualified to do any job. See how's the reputation of the teacher, if other reputable teachers advise him, if there's no scandals surrounding him, etc.
Then give it time, see how it goes. This will take a while. Don't leave your critical thinking at the door, don't be overly impressed by his students opinions at the beginning, etc.
If you have good enough karma, you'll do fine.
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by pemachophel »

"If you have good enough karma, you'll do fine."

Which is why we do ngondro: A) to purify negative karma and B) to generate huge amounts of positive karma. Then we do Guru yoga to receive the blessings of the Guru(s). Doing that will markedly improve one's chances of finding and being accepted by a qualified Guru.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:22 pm You got a better advice? Be careful about who you put your faith in, what else is there to say?
Yes, I think that's the best advice one could give! ;)
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Josef
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Josef »

Domingo wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:03 pm ...but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
If they lack empowerment and samaya then they are unqualified to give empowerment and samaya so, no.
The other qualities of a good teacher are rooted in having properly received transmission themselves, maintained samaya, and developed their knowledge.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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