Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,
It would appear the above requirement is not essential or critical.
Given that the number of masters that teach Dzogchen >>> the numbers of masters that reached the third Thogal vision,
Or maybe it is? When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
But the question remains: How do you, as a student, figure out if your (potential) teacher has reached the 2nd or 3rd vision? I imagine most people won't ask, and probably most Lamas won't answer either.
Its unlikely all teachers of Dzogchen have already entered into years of retreat on Thogal specifically just to develop those visions before they taught their first lesson on dzogchen.heart wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 amOr maybe it is? When my own teacher taught this particular point in the text by Shakya Shri he said that even the second vision would be enough based on other texts.
maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not
Could be. Then the person in question only has to decide which texts to follow: Those that say the 3rd vision is necessary, those that say the 2nd vision is necessary, or those texts that say having no more doubts about one's understanding of Trekchö/nature of mind is enough to qualify as a teacher. Tough decisionjet.urgyen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:00 pm maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not
if you are asking me, i think this are just nonesenses, is just not practical. if one is lucky enough to have a teacher that has any of those, to me, is more than sufficient. normally one doesn't have the clairvoyance to check such things, certainty comes only with experience.Domingo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:52 pmCould be. Then the person in question only has to decide which texts to follow: Those that say the 3rd vision is necessary, those that say the 2nd vision is necessary, or those texts that say having no more doubts about one's understanding of Trekchö/nature of mind is enough to qualify as a teacher. Tough decisionjet.urgyen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:00 pm maybe this is for the person to recognize he/she is in the correct track to teach, and not for the potential student to recognize if the person is the correct teacher or not
I think that those are instructions to the master rather than the disciple. Of course you can't know but you need to have the confidence or faith that your master is a Buddha then even if they aren't qualified it will be good.
I think it is unlikely that all masters that teach Dzogchen are qualified to do so.Kai lord wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:16 amIts unlikely all teachers of Dzogchen have already entered into years of retreat on Thogal specifically just to develop those visions before they taught their first lesson on dzogchen.
Is this also the case when it comes to Dzogchen teachers? I mean, can one receive DI from an unqualified teacher?
Fortunately we can leave that to the Dharmapalas of the terma cycles to throw various obstacles in front of those who they deem unworthy to teach. Authentic teachers also tend to share the companionship and friendship of other authentic teachers, making easier for newcomers to spot.heart wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:07 pmI think it is unlikely that all masters that teach Dzogchen are qualified to do so.
That seems unlikely. But you could experience something that you then would think was DI.
I also can't imagine that you can receive real DI from an unqualified teacher. But if that's the case, then your advice is rather problematic, because you can have all the confidence, faith and devotion you want, but if the teacher isn't qualified, it will not be good, but rather it will lead you completely astray.
You got a better advice? Be careful about who you put your faith in, what else is there to say?Domingo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:04 pmI also can't imagine that you can receive real DI from an unqualified teacher. But if that's the case, then your advice is rather problematic, because you can have all the confidence, faith and devotion you want, but if the teacher isn't qualified, it will not be good, but rather it will lead you completely astray.
Yes, I think that's the best advice one could give!
If they lack empowerment and samaya then they are unqualified to give empowerment and samaya so, no.