Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Dechen Norbu »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:16 pm "If you have good enough karma, you'll do fine."

Which is why we do ngondro: A) to purify negative karma and B) to generate huge amounts of positive karma. Then we do Guru yoga to receive the blessings of the Guru(s). Doing that will markedly improve one's chances of finding and being accepted by a qualified Guru.
Well, I wouldn't advise relying too much on doing ngöndro for this effect, since there's no shortage of people who did it and ended up getting the short straw when it came to their teacher anyway.
Better if we do ngöndro after finding a good teacher.
Kilaja
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kilaja »

Dechen Norbu wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:01 pm Better if we do ngöndro after finding a good teacher.
Even better if the teacher finds you.
PeterC
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by PeterC »

Kilaja wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:13 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:01 pm Better if we do ngöndro after finding a good teacher.
Even better if the teacher finds you.
Good luck with that
Natan
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Natan »

Longchenpa mentions it's someone who received empowerment and complete instructions, kept samaya, and is never separate from the yidam. If you see the lamas with talent in instruction, this is always the case.
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
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Aryjna
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Aryjna »

Domingo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:08 pm Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
I don't think it's necessarily ironic. But here is a non-restricted explanation, for a Mahayana teacher more generally, but still valid I would say

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... al_teacher
Malcolm
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Malcolm »

silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning
has a positive attitude, skill in teaching,
obtains the empowerments, applies the meaning of secret mantra,
understands all the inner and outer activities,
is inseparable from the pledged deity,
remains undistracted in samādhi,
is knowledgeable in the secret tantras of secret mantra,
possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection,
engages in all outer and inner sadhanas,
never leaves the meaning of the view,
gives up outer, inner, and secret activities,
is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel,
and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury.


-- Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra

You try to find someone who has as many of these qualities as possible.
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

Thank you, Malcolm! Aryjna's link was a nice try, but it was lacking crucial aspects when it comes specifically to Dzogchen teachers.
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
Kilaja
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Kilaja »

silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
I guess, one of the qualities would be to have permission from the lineage. Without permission I guess the person in question would be just creating obstacles.
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Jules 09
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Jules 09 »

silentobserver wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:04 am Thank you for your responses, everyone, and also for those to come.

In terms of evaluating a teacher to accept as your own, what do people generally look for? What qualities can be recognized immediately or known by a community, etc… ?

Are there lists to consult that one would not need a transmission or empowerment for?

What are some qualities that one can hold up to complete beginners to show what to look for in a real Dzogchen teacher?
In 'Words of My Perfect Teacher', Patrul Rinpoche gives some advice with regards to choosing a guru;
which you can read here:

https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... -rinpoche/

Always remember the words of Padmasambhava, as quoted by Patrul Rinpoche:
The Great Master of Oddiyana warns:

Not to examine the teacher
Is like drinking poison;
Not to examine the disciple
Is like leaping from a precipice.
Last edited by Jules 09 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by PeterC »

Domingo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:08 pm Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Strictly speaking, the content and existence of samaya vows is also the subject of samaya vows. So even if we say something like, someone who upholds the samaya vows, that still doesn’t give you the ebay seller ratings, let alone requirements relating to the teacher’s understanding and realization.
amanitamusc
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by amanitamusc »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:39 pm
silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
Is there a list of qualities?
Above all: kindness.
But that doesn't always display itself as 'being nice'.
Is this your experience?
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:20 am
Domingo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:08 pm Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Strictly speaking, the content and existence of samaya vows is also the subject of samaya vows. So even if we say something like, someone who upholds the samaya vows, that still doesn’t give you the ebay seller ratings, let alone requirements relating to the teacher’s understanding and realization.
Strictly speaking, an aspiring disciple would have to find a potential guru, spend 24/7 for 12 years with him to observe him, investigate him, and to make sure he's really what he's supposed to be. That's strictly speaking. But is that what you suggest to people who are interested in Vajrayana? Is that what you have done personally?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
PeterC
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by PeterC »

Domingo wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:03 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:20 am
Domingo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:08 pm Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Strictly speaking, the content and existence of samaya vows is also the subject of samaya vows. So even if we say something like, someone who upholds the samaya vows, that still doesn’t give you the ebay seller ratings, let alone requirements relating to the teacher’s understanding and realization.
Strictly speaking, an aspiring disciple would have to find a potential guru, spend 24/7 for 12 years with him to observe him, investigate him, and to make sure he's really what he's supposed to be. That's strictly speaking. But is that what you suggest to people who are interested in Vajrayana? Is that what you have done personally?
That is correct. Actually after a decade’s practice and seeing a range of teachers, a person usually has some experience in evaluating teachers, so that rule of thumb isn’t a bad one. Most of the stated criteria for a teacher are not things that someone can objectively assess anyway, even if you know what the criteria are.

What would I suggest? Using common sense. Get to know a few more experienced people and ask their opinions - the way you would proceed finding an expert on any particular topic if you’re not familiar with the area.
Domingo
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Domingo »

PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:21 am Get to know a few more experienced people and ask their opinions - the way you would proceed finding an expert on any particular topic if you’re not familiar with the area.
I guess that's what the OP is trying to do here. ;)
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
PeterC
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by PeterC »

Domingo wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:10 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:21 am Get to know a few more experienced people and ask their opinions - the way you would proceed finding an expert on any particular topic if you’re not familiar with the area.
I guess that's what the OP is trying to do here. ;)
That is a different question from the one that OP asked. And one that will get only partial answers on a public forum. But it's really the relevant question.
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Jules 09
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Jules 09 »

amanitamusc wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:51 am
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:39 pm
silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
Is there a list of qualities?
Above all: kindness.
But that doesn't always display itself as 'being nice'.
Is this your experience?
It has been my experience that a good teacher is motivated by the kindness of bodhicitta and that the application of skillful means can display itself in variety of ways.
Natan
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:15 pm
silentobserver wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:15 pm What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?
The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning
has a positive attitude, skill in teaching,
obtains the empowerments, applies the meaning of secret mantra,
understands all the inner and outer activities,
is inseparable from the pledged deity,
remains undistracted in samādhi,
is knowledgeable in the secret tantras of secret mantra,
possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection,
engages in all outer and inner sadhanas,
never leaves the meaning of the view,
gives up outer, inner, and secret activities,
is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel,
and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury.


-- Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra

You try to find someone who has as many of these qualities as possible.
And is not a war supporter. He should be a man of peace.
oldbob
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:
:good: :good: :good:

and ---

Then there are stories of how the Mahasiddhas were taught.



Haven't looked at it in 30 years but I remember a story of Naropa getting wacked on the head by Tilopa with a shoe. This creates a hetuwa moment of shock into which a Dzogchen Master can create a Direct Introduction - like the sounding of "phet'.

There is a story of Saraha getting it from an old fisherman lady.

There is a story of Drukpa Kunley bowing to the bums of insensate whores - and getting it.

Then there are the stories of Aku Tenba or the Sixth Dalai Lama - having many lady friends - and getting it.

Some of us got it from John Brzostoski when he taught at the New School in 1966 and gave a Tibetan wang and DI by throwing bits of paper at the class. (Ask Janet Gyatso)

So the key point is that the person(s) who Introduces you to Direct Introduction, Instant Presence, is your Dzogchen Teacher.

This is the key quality that a Dzogchen Master must have. All the other qualities are nice to have.

:heart:
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august
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Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master

Post by august »

Domingo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:08 pm Sorry to chime in... but... here's someone who wants to know about the qualifications of a Dzogchen teacher. The first comment is a reference to a text that should only be read after receiving lung. And then a discussion starts about who mentions which qualifications in which text. In the end, the OP doesn't get a clear answer (not even from senior practitioners), but instead he gets a list of different scriptures, but to read these texts the OP first needs to receive lung from a Dzogchen teacher. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?
Exactly. Thanks for writing my comment for me :)
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