The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

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Aemilius
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The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Aemilius »

What do think this Treasure if the Wheel is, that the Noble Wheel Turning King possesses?

To me it seems likely that it originates from the sightings of UFOs or UAPs in ancient India or in the ancient world generally. There must have been some actual contacts with the extraterrestrials at some time in the past, before the time of Gautama and on that basis the doctrine of the Noble Wheel Turning King had developed.

Sravasti Dhammika writes that vimanas are mentioned in the edicts of King Asoka. They were considered as auspicious signs or good omens during the time of King Asoka, basing on the edicts.


Dirgha Agama, the Long Discourses 6. The Noble Wheel-Turning King’s Cultivation:

"20. The Buddha told the monks, “The noble wheel-turning king accepted his father’s instruction and cultivated it as he’d explained. On the fifteenth-day full moon, he bathed in incense water and ascended the high hall while surrounded by his concubines, and the wheel treasure spontaneously appeared before him. The wheel had a thousand spokes and possessed a radiant color. It was made by a heavenly craftsman and wasn’t something that belongs to this world. It was made of pure gold and had a diameter of forty feet.

21. “The wheel-turning king then thought to himself, ‘I’ve heard from elders in the past that if a water-anointed warrior king bathes in incense water and ascends the treasure hall on the fifteenth-day full moon while surrounded by his concubines, then the golden wheel will suddenly appear before him. The wheel will have a thousand spokes and possess a radiant color. It’ll be made by a heavenly craftsman and won’t be something that belongs to this world. It’ll be made of pure gold and have a diameter of forty feet. He will then be called a noble wheel-turning king. Now, this appears to be the wheel, but perhaps this isn’t it? Now, I’d should like to test this wheel treasure.’

22. “The wheel-turning king then summoned the four armies and bared his right shoulder toward the golden wheel treasure. He knelt on his right knee, touched the golden wheel with his right hand, and said: ‘Go east. Turn according to the Dharma, and don’t go contrary to the eternal law.’ The wheel then turned east.

23. “The king then led his four armies and followed after it. Ahead of the golden wheel, there were four spirits guiding it, and the king stopped his horses where the wheel dwelled. At that point, the lesser kings of the east saw the great king arrive, and they came to the king with gold bowls holding silver barley and silver bowls holding gold barley. They present them to their chief, saying, ‘Welcome, great king! The lands in this eastern region are plentiful now. Please, noble king, rule them properly! We’ll serve you, right and left, and accept what you will.’

24. “The great wheel-turning king told the lesser kings, ‘Stop, stop! Good men, you have made offerings to me, but I will simply rule with the correct Dharma. Don’t bend yourselves to serve me. Let none in the country act contrary to the Dharma. This I call my way of ruling.’

25. “When the lesser kings heard this instruction, they then followed the great king, who toured their countries. He went east until the ocean was in sight, and next traveled south, west, and north, following where the wheel went. The kings there each presented their countries in comparable ways as the lesser countries in the east did.

26. “The wheel-turning king followed the golden wheel as it traveled around the four oceans, revealing the way and consoling the populace. He then returned to his home country. The golden wheel treasure hovered in the sky while he was in his palace. The wheel-turning king celebrated, saying, ‘This golden wheel treasure is a true sign for me that I truly am a noble wheel-turning king who has accomplished this golden wheel treasure.’

27. “After that king had ruled the world for a long time, the golden wheel treasure then suddenly departed from its place in the sky. The administrator of the wheel quickly went to the king and said, ‘Great king, you should know that the wheel treasure just left its place!’"

complete text https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... /DA_6.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by cdpatton »

I recall I read somewhere in my research that scholars believe the wheel-turning king myth may go back to the first empires in the Middle East and Persia. To me, the wheel treasure that's a golden disc in the sky is an obvious reference to the sun. That it serves as the mandate for the wheel turning king to rule the world may refer to the mandates that some ancient emperors claim to receive from sun gods. It's speculative, but probably closer to reality than :alien:.
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Kai lord »

cdpatton wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 10:16 pm I recall I read somewhere in my research that scholars believe the wheel-turning king myth may go back to the first empires in the Middle East and Persia. To me, the wheel treasure that's a golden disc in the sky is an obvious reference to the sun. That it serves as the mandate for the wheel turning king to rule the world may refer to the mandates that some ancient emperors claim to receive from sun gods. It's speculative, but probably closer to reality than :alien:.
Chakravartin can be seen as Buddhist/Indian concept of an" universal Monarch". Equivalent in terms of political functions and importance like Islamic "Caliphs", Chinese/Roman emperor, Persian Shahanshah, Russian Tsars, Mongol Khan/Khatan, etc.
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Aemilius »

cdpatton wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 10:16 pm I recall I read somewhere in my research that scholars believe the wheel-turning king myth may go back to the first empires in the Middle East and Persia. To me, the wheel treasure that's a golden disc in the sky is an obvious reference to the sun. That it serves as the mandate for the wheel turning king to rule the world may refer to the mandates that some ancient emperors claim to receive from sun gods. It's speculative, but probably closer to reality than :alien:.
It can't be the sun, because it (the wheel or chakra) is something that comes or appears to the young king when he is standing on a balcony of his palace (in the Lalitavistara sutra). In this Lalitavistara sutra passage it appears to be a thing that floats or flies in the air, when it comes or appears to the king on his balcony.

Also, it is something that moves, like in this passage of Dirgha Agama:
"The king then led his four armies and followed after it. Ahead of the golden wheel, there were four spirits guiding it, and the king stopped his horses where the wheel dwelled."

Also there are four kinds of wheels, made of gold, silver, copper or iron. This certainly points to a mechanical device.

In the writings of Nichiren he mentions a passage in the Lotus sutra, in which the follower can go and stay inside a copper wheel. (However, this passage seems to be absent from the present day Lotus sutra?)

See number 12. in Twenty Important Principles in the Lotus Sutra acknowledged by Nichiren: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=23994
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

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A couple of other buddhist sources say:

Vishuddhimagga, Path of Purification, page 377 :
"That consisting in travelling through the air, etc., in the case of Wheel-
turning Monarchs, etc., is called success of the meritorious, according as it is said:
“What is success of the meritorious? The Wheel-turning Monarch travels
through the air with his fourfold army,
even with his grooms and shepherds." "

Encyclopedia of Buddhism:
"Chakravartin is a bahuvrīhi compound word, figuratively meaning "whose wheels are moving", in the sense of "whose chariot is rolling everywhere without obstruction". It can also be analysed as an instrumental bahuvrīhi: "through whom the wheel is moving". The equivalent Tibetan term (T. ’khor lo sgyur ba’i rgyal po) translates "monarch who controls by means of a wheel"."
https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Chakravartin

Abhidharmakosha-bhashyam describes four kinds of Chakravartins. Most powerful of them is Suvarṇa-cakravartin; with a golden wheel. He rules over the four continents of a world system. Rival kings spontaneously surrender their lands when the Cakravartin's wheel enters their lands.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
cdpatton
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by cdpatton »

Aemilius wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:30 am
cdpatton wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 10:16 pm I recall I read somewhere in my research that scholars believe the wheel-turning king myth may go back to the first empires in the Middle East and Persia. To me, the wheel treasure that's a golden disc in the sky is an obvious reference to the sun. That it serves as the mandate for the wheel turning king to rule the world may refer to the mandates that some ancient emperors claim to receive from sun gods. It's speculative, but probably closer to reality than :alien:.
It can't be the sun, because it (the wheel or chakra) is something that comes or appears to the young king when he is standing on a balcony of his palace (in the Lalitavistara sutra). In this Lalitavistara sutra passage it appears to be a thing that floats or flies in the air, when it comes or appears to the king on his balcony.

Also, it is something that moves, like in this passage of Dirgha Agama:
"The king then led his four armies and followed after it. Ahead of the golden wheel, there were four spirits guiding it, and the king stopped his horses where the wheel dwelled."

Also there are four kinds of wheels, made of gold, silver, copper or iron. This certainly points to a mechanical device.

In the writings of Nichiren he mentions a passage in the Lotus sutra, in which the follower can go and stay inside a copper wheel. (However, this passage seems to be absent from the present day Lotus sutra?)

See number 12. in Twenty Important Principles in the Lotus Sutra acknowledged by Nichiren: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=23994
It's best not to try to take ancient myths literally. They are meaningful stories full of symbolisms that give the real world meaning, but they aren't historical documentaries, so to speak. They may have started out describing real events, but over the generations of storytellers, they lost their context and became fanciful. Sometimes, they are fanciful to begin with because ancient people were trying to explain things no one could know at the time.

It makes the most sense to me to see the wheel treasure as a double symbol that combines the sun with a mandate from heaven to rule the world. It takes the shape and color of the sun and moves in the sky like the sun, but it's also a wheel to represent the mandate. It's a symbol in the same way the treasurer is a symbol of the riches an empire generates. Was there literally a man who could magically summon up vast amounts of treasure? I would say not, but there were skilled traders who may have seemed magical to people because of the fabulous wealth made on the Silk Road.

Remember, too, that there was a time when building and managing a regional empire was a new and rare thing, and it would have seemed like divine provenance that one king could conquer so much territory and rule it. This would be symbolized by the Dharma wheel appearing and following the king as he subjugated the world. The wheel disappearing symbolizes when the emperor's authority is lost, and then the empire declines and collapses.

The four wheels made of different metals is a later development that created four grades of wheel-turning king. The early stories in the Digha Nikaya and Dirgha Agama only mention a gold wheel and one type of wheel-turning king. That the wheel is made out of gold isn't surprising to me. Buddhists believed the sun was made of gold and the moon was made of silver, to explain their color. You can find that in Chapter 12 of DA 30 where there are long descriptions of the sun and moon. They are fanciful, of course. The sun and moon aren't actually square palaces inhabited by gods. The stories about how the sun shines, the moon's phases, and how the weather can be cold while the sun is shining are entertaining, though!

The wheel moving in the sky could have originally referred to the way the sun appears when an army travels across country. They could see the sun in the sky at one point. An hour later and miles down the road, it wouldn't have moved much, making it appear to follow them. A person only notices that the sun or moon are moving when they pay attention for a long time. From minute to minute, they seem to follow along with us. The king also travels in the direction that the wheel indicates in the story. This could refer to using the position of the sun to navigate without a compass. To go east, one travels towards the sun in the morning and away from it in the evening. To go south, one travels with the sun to the left in the morning and to the right in the evening. Etc. But the wheel became something magical in the story, so it's depicted as moving of its own accord and directing the king's army.

Anyway, all of this speculation aside, it's one of those ancient stories that was adapted by different cultures over time to reach the versions we have in Buddhist sources today. It didn't begin with the Buddha or Buddhist authors. They adapted it to their own purpose, which was to liken the Buddha to being a spiritual wheel-turning king rather than a political one.
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

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The golden wheeled Chakravartin represents the most idealistic Buddhist version of an universal monarch or world ruler where he unites all the four continents or the entire landmass of a world system without a spill of blood and using just his charisma, reputation and words to accomplish that incredible feat. Whereas the iron wheeled Chakravartin is usually viewed as a compromise between an ideal ruler who only appears in the golden age and pragmatic world conquerors in our times.

The importance of the latter can be seen as a source of greatly needed aspiration for historical Buddhist kings to see the possibility of working towards morality and being viewed as noble by their own people despite being flawed in their actions. Meanwhile the former illustrate the perfect model of a worldly ruler combined with all aspects of the Buddhist ethics and it becomes the pinnacle height of what laypeople could achieve with just their good conducts (five precepts) and accumulated merits if they are to reborn as humans again.


In contrast to those two, the silver and copper wheeled chakravartins aren't as interesting, they were perhaps included just for the numbers....... :tongue:
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Aemilius »

cdpatton wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:13 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 8:30 am
cdpatton wrote: Mon May 01, 2023 10:16 pm I recall I read somewhere in my research that scholars believe the wheel-turning king myth may go back to the first empires in the Middle East and Persia. To me, the wheel treasure that's a golden disc in the sky is an obvious reference to the sun. That it serves as the mandate for the wheel turning king to rule the world may refer to the mandates that some ancient emperors claim to receive from sun gods. It's speculative, but probably closer to reality than :alien:.
It can't be the sun, because it (the wheel or chakra) is something that comes or appears to the young king when he is standing on a balcony of his palace (in the Lalitavistara sutra). In this Lalitavistara sutra passage it appears to be a thing that floats or flies in the air, when it comes or appears to the king on his balcony.

Also, it is something that moves, like in this passage of Dirgha Agama:
"The king then led his four armies and followed after it. Ahead of the golden wheel, there were four spirits guiding it, and the king stopped his horses where the wheel dwelled."

Also there are four kinds of wheels, made of gold, silver, copper or iron. This certainly points to a mechanical device.

In the writings of Nichiren he mentions a passage in the Lotus sutra, in which the follower can go and stay inside a copper wheel. (However, this passage seems to be absent from the present day Lotus sutra?)

See number 12. in Twenty Important Principles in the Lotus Sutra acknowledged by Nichiren: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=23994
It's best not to try to take ancient myths literally. They are meaningful stories full of symbolisms that give the real world meaning, but they aren't historical documentaries, so to speak. They may have started out describing real events, but over the generations of storytellers, they lost their context and became fanciful. Sometimes, they are fanciful to begin with because ancient people were trying to explain things no one could know at the time.

It makes the most sense to me to see the wheel treasure as a double symbol that combines the sun with a mandate from heaven to rule the world. It takes the shape and color of the sun and moves in the sky like the sun, but it's also a wheel to represent the mandate. It's a symbol in the same way the treasurer is a symbol of the riches an empire generates. Was there literally a man who could magically summon up vast amounts of treasure? I would say not, but there were skilled traders who may have seemed magical to people because of the fabulous wealth made on the Silk Road.

Remember, too, that there was a time when building and managing a regional empire was a new and rare thing, and it would have seemed like divine provenance that one king could conquer so much territory and rule it. This would be symbolized by the Dharma wheel appearing and following the king as he subjugated the world. The wheel disappearing symbolizes when the emperor's authority is lost, and then the empire declines and collapses.

The four wheels made of different metals is a later development that created four grades of wheel-turning king. The early stories in the Digha Nikaya and Dirgha Agama only mention a gold wheel and one type of wheel-turning king. That the wheel is made out of gold isn't surprising to me. Buddhists believed the sun was made of gold and the moon was made of silver, to explain their color. You can find that in Chapter 12 of DA 30 where there are long descriptions of the sun and moon. They are fanciful, of course. The sun and moon aren't actually square palaces inhabited by gods. The stories about how the sun shines, the moon's phases, and how the weather can be cold while the sun is shining are entertaining, though!

The wheel moving in the sky could have originally referred to the way the sun appears when an army travels across country. They could see the sun in the sky at one point. An hour later and miles down the road, it wouldn't have moved much, making it appear to follow them. A person only notices that the sun or moon are moving when they pay attention for a long time. From minute to minute, they seem to follow along with us. The king also travels in the direction that the wheel indicates in the story. This could refer to using the position of the sun to navigate without a compass. To go east, one travels towards the sun in the morning and away from it in the evening. To go south, one travels with the sun to the left in the morning and to the right in the evening. Etc. But the wheel became something magical in the story, so it's depicted as moving of its own accord and directing the king's army.

Anyway, all of this speculation aside, it's one of those ancient stories that was adapted by different cultures over time to reach the versions we have in Buddhist sources today. It didn't begin with the Buddha or Buddhist authors. They adapted it to their own purpose, which was to liken the Buddha to being a spiritual wheel-turning king rather than a political one.
From the story of conquering the four, three, two, or one continent(s) it is quite clear that the wheel has an immense deterrent power. The Cakravartin king's army doesn't even have to fight, the wheel is so powerful, so frightening. Thus it is very clear that it represents a new and superior kind of military or other unknown technology.

The ancient systems and ways of navigating are a different story. They do not speak about "quiding wheels" or other "mysterious wheels" in the numerous Jatakas and Avadanas in which the merchants or the hero of these stories travel to distant lands. Therefore it most certainly isn't a device of navigation.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Kai lord »

Asoka was an iron wheeled Chakravartin but he didn't use an iron wheel to conquer the lands of India (Jambudvipa) . He used his well trained armies and generals.
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Aemilius »

C. D. Patton: "The four wheels made of different metals is a later development that created four grades of wheel-turning king. The early stories in the Digha Nikaya and Dirgha Agama only mention a gold wheel and one type of wheel-turning king. That the wheel is made out of gold isn't surprising to me. Buddhists believed the sun was made of gold and the moon was made of silver, to explain their color. You can find that in Chapter 12 of DA 30 where there are long descriptions of the sun and moon. They are fanciful, of course. The sun and moon aren't actually square palaces inhabited by gods. The stories about how the sun shines, the moon's phases, and how the weather can be cold while the sun is shining are entertaining, though!"

I am sure that Gautama Buddha and at least the educated people in ancient India knew that our world is large, that the ocean is very large and that there are several continents with different kinds of people living in them.

In the oral tradition there have been extensive, medium and concise versions of the sutras. They were recited in these ways depending on the occasion and the audience. It is not the case that the shorter versions of the sutras are "more original" than the longer and more extensive ones.

I have read the stories of the Sun and Moon in the Dirgha Agama, some time ago. At first they seem rather humoristic. On the other hand I don't believe that the present scientific view of the cosmos is complete and final truth. I have had experiences which point to that Sun is a conscious being, and then Moon would also be a conscious being. The science doesn't as yet understand how and where consciousness exists. It isn't dependent on the brains. It can exist based on host of other phenomena. It exists based on several other and very different systems (than the brains) that there are in the universe.

Sun, Moon and planets also exist on several levels. It is something comparable to the buddhist levels of kamadhatu, rupadhatu and arupyadhatu. This means that Sun, Moon and planets have in them these other levels beyond the material level (which is the only level understood and accepted by modern science). What I am trying to say that there is truth in the Dirgha Agama view of the Sun and Moon.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: The Noble Wheel Turning King or Chakravartin in Dirgha Agama

Post by Aemilius »

In Edward Conze's book that consists of his translations of short Prajña Paramita texts there is the Perfection of Wisdom in 150 Lines, in which we have:

"VIII. The Entrance

Thereupon the Lord Sarvatathagatachakrantargata, the Tathagata, demonstrated the method of the perfection of wisdom called Entrance into the great Wheel:

'The Entrance into the Adamantine sameness leads to the Entrance into the Wheel of all the Tathagatas;

the Entrance intothe sameness of the meaning leads to the Entrance into the Wheel of the great Bodhisatttvas;

the Entrance into the sameness of all dharmas leads to the Entrance into the wheel of the true Dharma;

the Entrance into the sameness of everything leads to the Entrance into all Wheels.'

Thereupon the Bodhisattva Sacittotpadadharmachakrapravartin explained the meaning of this dharmic truth in greater detail. Smiling he revolved the Adamantine Wheel and taught the Quintessence (of doctrine) called 'the Entrance into all Adamantine Wheels' Hum."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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