Question about the human body

[SilenceMonkey]

Attaining the Vajra Body

The other aspect unique to tantra, which sutra does not have, is the attainment of the vajra body. When the vajra body is actualized, it does not appear differently from an ordinary person; however, in reality, it is no longer subject to birth, aging, illness, and death, or affected by the four elements of earth, water, fire, and wind. Because the body is unobstructed, it can easily fly at will or pass through a wall. Of course, this is not the purpose of attaining the vajra body; the real purpose is to transform the body of an ordinary person into the sambhogakaya that is defined by the thirty-two sacred marks and eighty virtuous signs.

From the standpoint of sutra, this is totally inconceivable; sutra maintains the physical body dwells in samsara, is impure, and should be eradicated or abandoned. To most people, this viewpoint in sutra is not incorrect, but tantra contains a lot of methods developed from wisdom that can transform the impure body into a pure body. As an example, a person who consumes poison may die, but a person who knows the way can combat poison with poison. Before realization, our body is a part of samsara; to be liberated, we must abandon it. However, with wisdom and skillful means, we do not have to give it up; rather we can transform it into the buddha body. The practices in tantra—using winds, channels, and essences and realizing clear light in Dzogchen—are the only way to attain this state. It cannot be accomplished with practices in sutra, be it Pure Land, Ch’an, Mind Only, or Middle Way. Not having read the teachings in tantra, even some of the venerable monastics in the sutra tradition are not able to accept the assertion that the physical body can be transformed in this way. But tantra indeed has methods rooted in the attainment of realization, which is a capacity of the mind. Actually, the development of the impure body is also a function of the mind; it is impure due to negative karma born of an impure mind. When the mind is able to attain realization and experience clear light, the impure body can then
be transformed into the vajra body. Naturally, other practices are also necessary during the process.

This is not merely an exposition; there are many such cases among accomplished masters in the history of Tibet. You must also have heard that, at the actual moment of death of some Dzogchen masters, people witnessed the gradual shrinking of the body until it dissolved into rays of light, and rainbow in the sky.

This transformation of the body is also a function of the mind. Ordinary people do not know how to develop this capability, but practitioners know the key to unlocking such capabilities and can actualize the result for all to see. This is likened to all the high tech gadgets nowadays that people five to six hundred years ago would not have thought possible. Actually, if people had the technology then, they would be able to develop the same things without having to wait several hundred years later for the right conditions to appear. In other words, the technology in the production of these modern gadgets has been around since antiquity; it is only that people in the past did not know how to develop it.

Similarly, we can now open up the inner world of our mind and discover the wonder inside. However, lacking the knowhow, we think afflictions and discursive thoughts are things that must be discarded. Without wisdom at the start, this approach has its merit, but once deep insight is attained, we can transform afflictions into the path without eliminating them. This is where tantra is unique.
In the sutra system, we have to undergo a very slow and long process of countless kalpas to attain initial realization. It then takes as much time to progress from the first bhumi to the seventh bhumi. When the eighth bhumi is realized, the consciousness of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind, out of the eight kinds of consciousness, are already purified. At that point, the external world we perceive is a buddha realm. This is how it is recorded in the sutras.

In the tantric system, one can transform the impure body into the vajra body in one lifetime through the special practice of manipulating the vital elements of the body and Dzogchen. Tibetan Buddhism gives a very detailed explanation of the vital elements of the body and separates them into four levels— outer, inner, secret, and utmost secret; the vital elements that non-Buddhist traditions refer to constitute only the simplest part of the outer level, and are nowhere near the deeper levels. It is by way of these pith teachings that tantra can develop the practice explained above.

“Gateway to the Vajrayana Path” by Khenchen Tsultrim Lodro, pp. 73-76

[PeterC]

Its a popular misconception to equate omniscience as understood in the western world that is heavily influenced by Abrahamic religions and greek philosophy with the buddhist's definition of omniscience as clearly laid out in Abhisamayalamkara which go in depth about the three types of omniscience with its 173 aspects that a Buddha possess.

Is anyone doing that in this discussion? It seemed that we were all clear on the definition

[Pero]

Its a popular misconception to equate omniscience as understood in the western world that is heavily influenced by Abrahamic religions and greek philosophy with the buddhist's definition of omniscience as clearly laid out in Abhisamayalamkara which go in depth about the three types of omniscience with its 173 aspects that a Buddha possess.

Is anyone doing that in this discussion? It seemed that we were all clear on the definition.

Sorry, I'm not, though I haven't been participating.
Is there some kind of actual Buddhist consesus on this? Isn't this something that was debated? Of course absence of a consesus could be an argument for it not being the regular omniscience in and of itself.

This text - Seventy Points of Abhisamayālaṃkāra - has this to say:

1. Knowledge of All Aspects (or Omniscience)
Definition

Knowledge of all aspects (or omniscience) is defined as knowing directly, and in a single instant, all aspects, without exception, of things in their real nature and in all their multiplicity.

Subdivisions

It can be subdivided into the omniscience which knows the nature of things and the omniscience which knows all things in their multiplicity. An illustration of the former is the true cessation present in the continuum of the noble Buddha. The latter includes both the omniscience which knows the features of all knowable phenomena without exception, and the omniscience which knows the seventy points, the chief amongst all causes and effects.

Where to me knowing the features of all knowable phenomena is regular omniscience more or less. But later in the text this seems to be dismissed as irrelevant.

Looking about Buddhist omniscience I found another article by Analayo on omniscience itself - The Buddha And Omniscience.

Thus, though the Buddha “knew all” in the sense that he had penetrative insight into the nature of every aspect
of experience and was thereby completely detached from “all” and free from “all” defilements,the passages examined so far
indicate that he did not claim to be omniscient in the technical sense of the term. The attribution of omniscience to the Buddha appears to
be the outcome of a historically later development...

I found the article educational but it's a little strange that in the suicide article Analayo seems to have forgotten what he wrote here.

[stong gzugs]

I'm pretty on board with PadmaVonSamba's argument here, that if we approach this story purely from the question of omniscience, we get all wrapped up in theological puzzles and might miss the key point about how to use these practices responsibly. (Like Kai Lord and Pero, I'm also not entirely sure that all Buddhists are on the same page about what omniscience necessarily means in this specific case). Whether the story describes the historical Buddha, or whether the compilers of the cannon chose to write a story as if it did, this story still functions to impress upon the reader the question of how to use these practices responsibly.

This topic is captured in another great article that I'm currently making my way through. It asks why the aśubhā continued to be recommended if it had these downsides, and emphasizes how different practice traditions (even getting into the Mahayāna and Vajrayāna) described the transition from aśubhā to śubhā. One answer it explores, is that the aśubhā facilitates renunciation from the world and then the śubhā aspects are perceived (or are they cultivated?) through the dhyānas (which can really only be experienced after one is in a state of renunciation). If anyone reads this article and has further thoughts, I'd love to hear what you think about it!

[Buddha's Jest]

That story is not very believable, you have to be a little stupid to take it seriously.

Tell that to Bhikkhu Anālayo.

Did you guys even read the whole sutra? It goes on to say that the monks who committed suicide where under the power of Mara who had beguiled another monk into deceiving these poor souls into performing those unfortunate actions. Nowhere does it say that it was the Buddha's intention for anyone to kill himself, not even King Ashoka, King Ajatashatru, Finger-Necklace, or Devadatta and any of the other great villains - let alone innocent monks!

Also, elsewhere in the scriptures we find statements such as "If one commits suicide in this life, then he will likewise take his own life for the next 500 lifetimes". Thus these monks were apparently, no doubt, fulfilling this exact kind of karma caused by their actions in former lives.

[PeterC]

That story is not very believable, you have to be a little stupid to take it seriously.

Tell that to Bhikkhu Anālayo.

Did you guys even read the whole sutra? It goes on to say that the monks who committed suicide where under the power of Mara who had beguiled another monk into deceiving these poor souls into performing those unfortunate actions. Nowhere does it say that it was the Buddha's intention for anyone to kill himself, not even King Ashoka, King Ajatashatru, Finger-Necklace, or Devadatta and any of the other great villains - let alone innocent monks!

Which is something a Buddha would have known, hence the problem

Also, elsewhere in the scriptures we find statements such as "If one commits suicide in this life, then he will likewise take his own life for the next 500 lifetimes". Thus these monks were apparently, no doubt, fulfilling this exact kind of karma caused by their actions in former lives.

But if that were the reasons why is that explanation is not offered in the story itself?

It’s good that Analayo takes on this story. But there really is no good way to rationalize it without admitting that the canon is in places internally inconsistent.

[stong gzugs]

Did you guys even read the whole sutra?

Did you guys even read the whole sutra?

Yes, we did. Not sure you need to repeat yourself using multiple usernames.