If experiences are inherently neutral

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
MagnetSoulSP
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If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Then does feeling happy or sad over something essentially mean I'm just lying to myself.

Like people respond to the same thing differently which means the experience itself is neutral. So if I get upset, happy, etc over something does that mean I'm just lying to myself or deluding myself.

If so does that mean I'm not supposed to feel anything about anything in my life ever again?
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conebeckham
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by conebeckham »

On the relative level, experiences can be virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. There are many factors that determine this, as intention, action, result, etc. all play a part. One's own history, personality, etc., shapes whether the Karma, and the experience, are virtuous, neutral, or non-virtuous, as well.

"Feeling" is also a part of the link of samsara, and is tied up with all these other factors as well.

But what you're doing, but looking conceptually at experiences as "neutral," is not really true, and also is merely a mental conceptualization. Buddha didn't ask us to deny our feelings, but to learn how to transcend delusion. I think it may help, to some degree, to analyze experiences the way you have done, but in the end such conceptual work is not going to solve the problems. Further, it could be a rationalization which allows you to avoid experience, feeling, and all the stuff which is deeper than mere "rational" conceptual understanding.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:37 pm Then does feeling happy or sad over something essentially mean I'm just lying to myself.

Like people respond to the same thing differently which means the experience itself is neutral. So if I get upset, happy, etc over something does that mean I'm just lying to myself or deluding myself.

If so does that mean I'm not supposed to feel anything about anything in my life ever again?
Feelings are not inherently anything.
You are just feeling things. No lying or delusion is happening.
The delusion is in thinking h that the feelings mean you are either lying or not lying.

Delusion is also clinging to feelings assuming they will last and are not temporary.
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MagnetSoulSP
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

conebeckham wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:26 pm On the relative level, experiences can be virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. There are many factors that determine this, as intention, action, result, etc. all play a part. One's own history, personality, etc., shapes whether the Karma, and the experience, are virtuous, neutral, or non-virtuous, as well.

"Feeling" is also a part of the link of samsara, and is tied up with all these other factors as well.

But what you're doing, but looking conceptually at experiences as "neutral," is not really true, and also is merely a mental conceptualization. Buddha didn't ask us to deny our feelings, but to learn how to transcend delusion. I think it may help, to some degree, to analyze experiences the way you have done, but in the end such conceptual work is not going to solve the problems. Further, it could be a rationalization which allows you to avoid experience, feeling, and all the stuff which is deeper than mere "rational" conceptual understanding.
I don't know if it's helping since it's leaving me feeling depressed and hollow thinking feeling anything is wrong or lying to myself if everything inherently neutral.
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by Vasana »

Ardha wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:37 pm Then does feeling happy or sad over something essentially mean I'm just lying to myself.

Like people respond to the same thing differently which means the experience itself is neutral. So if I get upset, happy, etc over something does that mean I'm just lying to myself or deluding myself.

If so does that mean I'm not supposed to feel anything about anything in my life ever again?
Becoming an emotionless recluse is an unfortunate but common misconception many people hold towards the purpose of Buddhist philosophy and practice.

The question can be answered with multiple levels of subtlety and is presented differently among different schools of Buddhism. The Sutra approach in general involves the conceptual analysis of the aggregates and encourages the renouncing of worldly pleasures since this form of attachment is akin to a form of delusion, but only from the point of view of a Buddha. This doesn't mean you're not to feel anything though. Even if it did, it wouldn't be possible until reaching certain states of meditative absorption, in which case, you would have gone far beyond any such worries, concerns or doubts, even if only for a short while.

Tantra approaches emotions and feelings differently and serves to find the wisdom hidden within them and so also doesn't really amount to lying or deluding oneself, but rather just a misrelating of feeling and experience. This topic should be learnt from a skilled teacher and isn't necessarily the best or most useful approach for everyone. Even for those who do follow this path, conceptual analysis is still often encouraged since our habitual tendencies of seeing phenomena with attachment, aversion or indifference is still so heavily ingrained.

There are other more subtle approaches for relating with emotions and thoughts, but again require the instructions of skilled teachers to make sense of in order to gain any direct knowledge and experience of.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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conebeckham
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by conebeckham »

Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:08 am
conebeckham wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:26 pm On the relative level, experiences can be virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. There are many factors that determine this, as intention, action, result, etc. all play a part. One's own history, personality, etc., shapes whether the Karma, and the experience, are virtuous, neutral, or non-virtuous, as well.

"Feeling" is also a part of the link of samsara, and is tied up with all these other factors as well.

But what you're doing, but looking conceptually at experiences as "neutral," is not really true, and also is merely a mental conceptualization. Buddha didn't ask us to deny our feelings, but to learn how to transcend delusion. I think it may help, to some degree, to analyze experiences the way you have done, but in the end such conceptual work is not going to solve the problems. Further, it could be a rationalization which allows you to avoid experience, feeling, and all the stuff which is deeper than mere "rational" conceptual understanding.
I don't know if it's helping since it's leaving me feeling depressed and hollow thinking feeling anything is wrong or lying to myself if everything inherently neutral.
I would suggest that you abandon the idea that experiences are neutral, and allow yourself to feel whatever positive or negative feelings arise in your experience. Buddhism is not about adopting a conceptual framework with which to rationalize one's experience, in the end. It's about understanding the nature of your experience. Maybe good to train on how all feelings and experiences are temporary, how they arise and cease like all experiences....but I am not a teacher, and I think best to find a good teacher you can discuss this with......best wishes!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:28 pm
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:08 am
conebeckham wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:26 pm On the relative level, experiences can be virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. There are many factors that determine this, as intention, action, result, etc. all play a part. One's own history, personality, etc., shapes whether the Karma, and the experience, are virtuous, neutral, or non-virtuous, as well.

"Feeling" is also a part of the link of samsara, and is tied up with all these other factors as well.

But what you're doing, but looking conceptually at experiences as "neutral," is not really true, and also is merely a mental conceptualization. Buddha didn't ask us to deny our feelings, but to learn how to transcend delusion. I think it may help, to some degree, to analyze experiences the way you have done, but in the end such conceptual work is not going to solve the problems. Further, it could be a rationalization which allows you to avoid experience, feeling, and all the stuff which is deeper than mere "rational" conceptual understanding.
I don't know if it's helping since it's leaving me feeling depressed and hollow thinking feeling anything is wrong or lying to myself if everything inherently neutral.
I would suggest that you abandon the idea that experiences are neutral, and allow yourself to feel whatever positive or negative feelings arise in your experience. Buddhism is not about adopting a conceptual framework with which to rationalize one's experience, in the end. It's about understanding the nature of your experience. Maybe good to train on how all feelings and experiences are temporary, how they arise and cease like all experiences....but I am not a teacher, and I think best to find a good teacher you can discuss this with......best wishes!
I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far its done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.

I'm gonna take care of some mental health issues I have for the moment. Maybe down the line Buddhism will find me when I'm in a better state but until then it's better I just leave it all behind right now.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm
I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far its done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.

I'm gonna take care of some mental health issues I have for the moment. Maybe down the line Buddhism will find me when I'm in a better state but until then it's better I just leave it all behind right now.
That’s probably a good idea.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far it’s done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.
So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far its done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.

I'm gonna take care of some mental health issues I have for the moment. Maybe down the line Buddhism will find me when I'm in a better state but until then it's better I just leave it all behind right now.
Indeed if your path is not giving you joy and alleviating your suffering, keep looking.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by seeker242 »

It doesn’t make any sense to think you’re not supposed to feel feelings. The Buddha himself felt feelings.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far it’s done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.
So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far it’s done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.
So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
Maybe you should put the blame on your own misunderstanding and clinging to false ideas about Buddhism, even when people have repeatedly explained what the teachings actually say.
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conebeckham
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by conebeckham »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far it’s done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.
So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
I think that's fine.
My only suggestion is--reading books does not make one a Buddhist. There really is no Buddhism without a teacher and a student, or at least a "Spiritual friend" who can personalize your issues and concerns within this path. Internet is not gonna cut it, either, as you have no doubt realized by now. Good luck to you, and I will just say that mental health is really an essential first step if one really wishes to practice this path. I commend you.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
master of puppets
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by master of puppets »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:13 pm I think I'm better off abandoning Buddhism, so far it’s done nothing but cause me suffering and pain.
So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
There is no single bad message in Buddhism.

All are for doing good, avoiding bad and for having a clear mind.

Unless if you are not filling your bucket with unnecessary questions,

and get cause so called headaches,


on the other hand once you find the way (of practice) all the noise is useless..

that's why keeping it simple is important or the core

in zen that's what ı'm trying to do.

cheers,
Last edited by master of puppets on Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by Ayu »

master of puppets wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:50 pm
Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:06 am So now you are blaming Buddhism?

Good luck on your journey.
I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
There is no single bad message in Buddhism.

All are for doing good, avoiding bad and for having a clear mind.

Unless if you are not filling your bucket with unnecessary questions,

and get cause so called headaches,


on the other hand once you find the way (of practice) all the noise is useless..

that's why keeping it simple is important or the core

in zen that's what ı'm trying to do.

cheers,
💐 I have to agree fully.
MagnetSoulSP
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Ayu wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:24 pm
master of puppets wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:50 pm
Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:54 pm

I am, because since reading it it hasn't helped me out in the slightest and just made things worse. So I'm letting it go for now and if it comes back when I'm in a better space that's fine.
There is no single bad message in Buddhism.

All are for doing good, avoiding bad and for having a clear mind.

Unless if you are not filling your bucket with unnecessary questions,

and get cause so called headaches,


on the other hand once you find the way (of practice) all the noise is useless..

that's why keeping it simple is important or the core

in zen that's what ı'm trying to do.

cheers,
💐 I have to agree fully.
I'd have to disagree. While to some it might not be bad it can be to others. Stuff like saying "pain isn't real" (and I mean real as in exists not how buddhists use real) can mess people up by leading them to think that because they are hurting or in pain that they are just lying to themselves or delusional, but they can't stop it, and then the cycle just compounds itself. That's just one of many messages than can be bad in Buddhism. I know a lot of messages have caused me no end of grief.

So I don't think this is a very responsible take on the matter, especially the common response to questions about such messages is "you just don't get it" (or something along that line). A better response would be "don't worry about it, it's nothing".
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:21 pm Stuff like saying "pain isn't real" (and I mean real as in exists not how buddhists use real) can mess people up by leading them to think that because they are hurting or in pain that they are just lying to themselves or delusional, but they can't stop it, and then the cycle just compounds itself. That's just one of many messages than can be bad in Buddhism.
But nobody said that in feeling pain you are lying to yourself.

What you are saying is that stating “nothing is real” with a meaning that is different than how
Buddhism would use the statement, that can lead to problems. That’s correct.

So, you can’t blame Buddhism if you happen to misinterpret or distort a teaching.

And you can’t blame Buddhism when multiple attempts are made to explain a correct understanding of things to you but you just refuse to listen.

You encountered a teaching that you didn’t understand. Because you didn’t understand it, you experienced conflicts in the mind. This is basically the only thing has happened. When people try to explain it to you, you cling to your misunderstanding. Maybe that is delusional.
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MagnetSoulSP
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:56 pm
Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:21 pm Stuff like saying "pain isn't real" (and I mean real as in exists not how buddhists use real) can mess people up by leading them to think that because they are hurting or in pain that they are just lying to themselves or delusional, but they can't stop it, and then the cycle just compounds itself. That's just one of many messages than can be bad in Buddhism.
But nobody said that in feeling pain you are lying to yourself.

What you are saying is that stating “nothing is real” with a meaning that is different than how
Buddhism would use the statement, that can lead to problems. That’s correct.

So, you can’t blame Buddhism if you happen to misinterpret or distort a teaching.

And you can’t blame Buddhism when multiple attempts are made to explain a correct understanding of things to you but you just refuse to listen.

You encountered a teaching that you didn’t understand. Because you didn’t understand it, you experienced conflicts in the mind. This is basically the only thing has happened. When people try to explain it to you, you cling to your misunderstanding. Maybe that is delusional.
I can actually since the common phrase I hear is "you don't get it" which sounds like the religion has a communication problem. Though that's understandable since there is translation bugs and not everything cleanly moves over.

But both the teaching and the "correct understanding" of it have caused me pain, as my threads have shown. So I'm better off leaving it behind for now.
master of puppets
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Re: If experiences are inherently neutral

Post by master of puppets »

Ardha wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:21 pm
Ayu wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:24 pm
master of puppets wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:50 pm

There is no single bad message in Buddhism.

All are for doing good, avoiding bad and for having a clear mind.

Unless if you are not filling your bucket with unnecessary questions,

and get cause so called headaches,


on the other hand once you find the way (of practice) all the noise is useless..

that's why keeping it simple is important or the core

in zen that's what ı'm trying to do.

cheers,
💐 I have to agree fully.
I'd have to disagree. While to some it might not be bad it can be to others. Stuff like saying "pain isn't real" (and I mean real as in exists not how buddhists use real) can mess people up by leading them to think that because they are hurting or in pain that they are just lying to themselves or delusional, but they can't stop it, and then the cycle just compounds itself. That's just one of many messages than can be bad in Buddhism. I know a lot of messages have caused me no end of grief.

So I don't think this is a very responsible take on the matter, especially the common response to questions about such messages is "you just don't get it" (or something along that line). A better response would be "don't worry about it, it's nothing".
I see. you shouldn't identify Buddhism with anyone here. Buddha is sure more compassionate. most people ı know of zen has sharp-tongued. this is ı believe that a show of ignorance or immaturity rather than wisdom. at the same time the most sweet-natured people are of Buddhism that ı know. better to let things settle down. and you'll face with my previous messages. may be you need to meet a compassionate friend that will accompany you. hope you will find!!!

don't get upset with small things!!! better find a good companion that will go along with you.

many teachers are there on and along internet or could be around. lucky on that!!
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