Tibetan as a written language

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PeterC
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by PeterC »

Punya wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:10 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
The main language of instruction in schools in the PRC has to be mandarin, because otherwise it puts students at a major disadvantage when seeking work, applying to university, etc. But for the majority of the country - of every ethnicity, including Han - mandarin is not their first language: even today, most people speak one of many local dialects as children, as basically every city has a slightly different dialect, and many of these are mutually incomprehensible even if they are in the same language family. So by using mandarin, it's also contributing to the decline of shanghainese, cantonese, hokkien, southern min, etc. - something that Han linguists have debated over the years - but that's just the nature of modern education in every multilingual (or rather, multidialectal) country in the world. The alternative in places like Tibet is greatly reduced social and economic mobility for youth, which brings with it all sorts of other problems. It remains very straightforward for ethnic minorities to study their own languages, though.

It's also notable that they only quote western sources in those two articles, rather than Tibetans.
I wasn't actually trying making a statement other than to note this appears to be a current trend. I agree a case can be made for both sides of the argument.

But whichever language is being discussed whether its Welsh, an aboriginal language in Australia or the Tibetan dialects, it's pretty evident that a decline in a language being spoken also undermines a people's sense of identity and belonging and impacts on their heritage and belief systems.
The decline of minority languages is an unfortunate thing culturally, yes, but it's an unavoidable process.
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
It's also notable that they only quote western sources in those two articles, rather than Tibetans.
Are you saying these western sources are unreliable? You don't have to look too far to find stories like this in the Tibetan media as well.
I doubt any of the sources in those links have actually been to TIbet in the past, say, four years. Whatever the reliability of the facts, they seem to suggest some malign motivation around harming Tibetan culture, rather than more practical motivation around making sure there aren't large numbers of disaffected, unemployed young Tibetans - or rather, aren't any more than there otherwise would be
nyamlae
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:30 pm

Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by nyamlae »

PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am The decline of minority languages is an unfortunate thing culturally, yes, but it's an unavoidable process.
It's not unavoidable. "Nothing to be done" attitudes are a plague on humanity and a serious barrier to progress and improvement. Plenty of minority languages are seeing revival nowadays due to improved education programs and resources.
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
I doubt any of the sources in those links have actually been to TIbet in the past, say, four years. Whatever the reliability of the facts, they seem to suggest some malign motivation around harming Tibetan culture, rather than more practical motivation around making sure there aren't large numbers of disaffected, unemployed young Tibetans - or rather, aren't any more than there otherwise would be
Ah, the old "compassionate cultural destruction" argument that imperialists love to make. Tibetans don't need China to be their nanny, and they can make their own decisions about how to get jobs. Having only one class in Tibetan is deplorable, and will absolutely contribute to the erosion of Tibetan culture. The shift in focus from Tibetan to Mandarin is textbook assimilation.

I hope that China will collapse within my lifetime, and that the people will gain self-determination.
ཨ་ཀུ་ཧ་ྈྐ།
ཨི་ཙུ་ཡ་ཤ།
རྀ་ཊུ་ར་ཥ།
ལྀ་ཏུ་ལ་ས།
ཨུ་པུ་ཝ་ྉྤ།

https://tibetanlanguage.school/
PeterC
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by PeterC »

nyamlae wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:24 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am The decline of minority languages is an unfortunate thing culturally, yes, but it's an unavoidable process.
It's not unavoidable. "Nothing to be done" attitudes are a plague on humanity and a serious barrier to progress and improvement. Plenty of minority languages are seeing revival nowadays due to improved education programs and resources.
You're proving my point. The only language on that list that's any more than an academic curiosity is Hebrew, which is the official language of a state.
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:35 am
I doubt any of the sources in those links have actually been to TIbet in the past, say, four years. Whatever the reliability of the facts, they seem to suggest some malign motivation around harming Tibetan culture, rather than more practical motivation around making sure there aren't large numbers of disaffected, unemployed young Tibetans - or rather, aren't any more than there otherwise would be
Ah, the old "compassionate cultural destruction" argument that imperialists love to make. Tibetans don't need China to be their nanny, and they can make their own decisions about how to get jobs. Having only one class in Tibetan is deplorable, and will absolutely contribute to the erosion of Tibetan culture. The shift in focus from Tibetan to Mandarin is textbook assimilation.

I hope that China will collapse within my lifetime, and that the people will gain self-determination.
I thought we were talking about use of common languages in education. You're entitled to your opinions, however much I might disagree with them, but you would benefit from knowing more of the facts of the situation before forming them.
nyamlae
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by nyamlae »

PeterC wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:20 am
nyamlae wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:24 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am The decline of minority languages is an unfortunate thing culturally, yes, but it's an unavoidable process.
It's not unavoidable. "Nothing to be done" attitudes are a plague on humanity and a serious barrier to progress and improvement. Plenty of minority languages are seeing revival nowadays due to improved education programs and resources.
You're proving my point. The only language on that list that's any more than an academic curiosity is Hebrew, which is the official language of a state.
On the contrary, these examples prove that languages can be revitalized. This subject is of more than "academic curiosity" for the speakers and communities whose languages are being revitalized.
ཨ་ཀུ་ཧ་ྈྐ།
ཨི་ཙུ་ཡ་ཤ།
རྀ་ཊུ་ར་ཥ།
ལྀ་ཏུ་ལ་ས།
ཨུ་པུ་ཝ་ྉྤ།

https://tibetanlanguage.school/
PeterC
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by PeterC »

nyamlae wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:12 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:20 am
nyamlae wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:24 am

It's not unavoidable. "Nothing to be done" attitudes are a plague on humanity and a serious barrier to progress and improvement. Plenty of minority languages are seeing revival nowadays due to improved education programs and resources.
You're proving my point. The only language on that list that's any more than an academic curiosity is Hebrew, which is the official language of a state.
On the contrary, these examples prove that languages can be revitalized. This subject is of more than "academic curiosity" for the speakers and communities whose languages are being revitalized.
Is that how you read the examples? Most of them cited only very small numbers of people being actually able to use the language in question, and no real prospect of the language becoming a standard of communication for a geographic area. Hebrew was the obvious exception, also possibly Sanskrit as the objective there is not to reconstruct a spoken language but to enable the study of texts
nyamlae
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by nyamlae »

PeterC wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:46 am Is that how you read the examples? Most of them cited only very small numbers of people being actually able to use the language in question, and no real prospect of the language becoming a standard of communication for a geographic area. Hebrew was the obvious exception, also possibly Sanskrit as the objective there is not to reconstruct a spoken language but to enable the study of texts
Hebrew is the best-case situation, not the bar for legitimate language revitalization. Creating language resources, increasing the number of speakers, raising native speakers, getting education policies passed by government, and expanding the use of the language in everyday life are all valid and necessary aspects of revitalization. Revitalization is a process, and a long-term one.
ཨ་ཀུ་ཧ་ྈྐ།
ཨི་ཙུ་ཡ་ཤ།
རྀ་ཊུ་ར་ཥ།
ལྀ་ཏུ་ལ་ས།
ཨུ་པུ་ཝ་ྉྤ།

https://tibetanlanguage.school/
MiphamFan
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by MiphamFan »

Tibetan doesn’t need to be “revived” because it never died, unlike spoken Hebrew, Cornish etc.

Tibetans in the PRC today are very much using Tibetan for all the things you use English for today, chatting online, messaging friends and family, writing blogs and articles etc.

If you go by the same argument you would also say that the Tibetans in the exile community are losing their language because they mostly learn mathematics, science etc in Hindi or English.
nyamlae
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:30 pm

Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by nyamlae »

MiphamFan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:51 am Tibetan doesn’t need to be “revived” because it never died, unlike spoken Hebrew, Cornish etc.

Tibetans in the PRC today are very much using Tibetan for all the things you use English for today, chatting online, messaging friends and family, writing blogs and articles etc.

If you go by the same argument you would also say that the Tibetans in the exile community are losing their language because they mostly learn mathematics, science etc in Hindi or English.
The idea of language revival or revitalization doesn't only apply to dead languages. Lots of living languages are undergoing revitalization. I've met a lot of Tibetans in diaspora whose parents haven't passed on the language to them, or who have only passed on small parts of it, which is one of the warning signs for language endangerment. Decreasing Tibetan education in colonizer schools is also a classic precursor to language decline and death. This is how things went for indigenous languages in my area just a few generations ago, and I'm not going to ignore the warning signs for Tibetan.
ཨ་ཀུ་ཧ་ྈྐ།
ཨི་ཙུ་ཡ་ཤ།
རྀ་ཊུ་ར་ཥ།
ལྀ་ཏུ་ལ་ས།
ཨུ་པུ་ཝ་ྉྤ།

https://tibetanlanguage.school/
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conebeckham
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by conebeckham »

nyamlae wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:20 am
MiphamFan wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:51 am Tibetan doesn’t need to be “revived” because it never died, unlike spoken Hebrew, Cornish etc.

Tibetans in the PRC today are very much using Tibetan for all the things you use English for today, chatting online, messaging friends and family, writing blogs and articles etc.

If you go by the same argument you would also say that the Tibetans in the exile community are losing their language because they mostly learn mathematics, science etc in Hindi or English.
The idea of language revival or revitalization doesn't only apply to dead languages. Lots of living languages are undergoing revitalization. I've met a lot of Tibetans in diaspora whose parents haven't passed on the language to them, or who have only passed on small parts of it, which is one of the warning signs for language endangerment. Decreasing Tibetan education in colonizer schools is also a classic precursor to language decline and death. This is how things went for indigenous languages in my area just a few generations ago, and I'm not going to ignore the warning signs for Tibetan.
Agree with this 100%.
Linguistic diversity is a positive thing, in general.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Punya
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by Punya »

PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am ....practical motivation around making sure there aren't large numbers of disaffected, unemployed young Tibetans - or rather, aren't any more than there otherwise would be
The disaffection of young Tibetans in China is unlikely to be solved just through increased Chinese language knowledge and employment. In Canada, for example:
Suicide is a leading cause of death for youth in Canada. For Indigenous communities, high rates of suicide are linked to a variety of factors including the consequences of colonialism, discrimination, community disruption and the loss of culture and language. Addressing the disparities in the social determinants of health and promoting a sense of hope, purpose, meaning and belonging are key ways of promoting life and preventing suicide for Indigenous peoples.

https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/157608968 ... 41803#sec1
The same kinds of issues are also being experienced amongst Australian aboriginals. Knowledge of indigenous language has been identified as an important factor in resilience amongst aboriginal peoples:
On the other hand, several resiliency factors, or factors that are associated with lower suicide rates, have been identified among Indigenous youth. These include “cultural continuity” factors such as having a high proportion (50 per cent or higher) of people in the community with knowledge of an Indigenous language. Other factors identified in previous literature as increasing resilience include having adopted measures to (1) secure Indigenous title to traditional lands; (2) achieve self-governance; (3) gain control over educational, health care, police and fire services; and (4) establish cultural facilities to preserve and enrich cultural lives.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/99- ... 01-eng.htm
It is highly likely that this is also playing out amongst minority populations in China, including Tibetans. And it's one of the main reasons why maintaining and supporting indigenous languages and dialects amongst Tibetans, both inside and outside China, is important.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
PeterC
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by PeterC »

Punya wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:14 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:31 am ....practical motivation around making sure there aren't large numbers of disaffected, unemployed young Tibetans - or rather, aren't any more than there otherwise would be
The disaffection of young Tibetans in China is unlikely to be solved just through increased Chinese language knowledge and employment. In Canada, for example:
Suicide is a leading cause of death for youth in Canada. For Indigenous communities, high rates of suicide are linked to a variety of factors including the consequences of colonialism, discrimination, community disruption and the loss of culture and language. Addressing the disparities in the social determinants of health and promoting a sense of hope, purpose, meaning and belonging are key ways of promoting life and preventing suicide for Indigenous peoples.

https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/157608968 ... 41803#sec1
The same kinds of issues are also being experienced amongst Australian aboriginals. Knowledge of indigenous language has been identified as an important factor in resilience amongst aboriginal peoples:
On the other hand, several resiliency factors, or factors that are associated with lower suicide rates, have been identified among Indigenous youth. These include “cultural continuity” factors such as having a high proportion (50 per cent or higher) of people in the community with knowledge of an Indigenous language. Other factors identified in previous literature as increasing resilience include having adopted measures to (1) secure Indigenous title to traditional lands; (2) achieve self-governance; (3) gain control over educational, health care, police and fire services; and (4) establish cultural facilities to preserve and enrich cultural lives.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/99- ... 01-eng.htm
It is highly likely that this is also playing out amongst minority populations in China, including Tibetans. And it's one of the main reasons why maintaining and supporting indigenous languages and dialects amongst Tibetans, both inside and outside China, is important.
Neither the Canadian First Nations nor the Australian Aboriginals actually speak their indigenous languages at home as their first language (to the best of my knowledge), so in that regard their situation is already a lot worse than the TIbetans, who like most people in China do not speak Mandarin as a first language. The question above was about the language of instruction in schools, and I'm pretty sure nobody is advocating for using one of the many first nation languages as the language of instruction in Canadian schools, which would only further the isolation of that community.

I agree that the situation of those two communities is deplorable and it is widely accepted by their governments that over a century of racist policies, first by the former colonial governments and then continued by the independent governments, caused that situation: it involves a whole lot more than languages.

Nobody said this was straightforward. Preserving a culture in part requires preserving the language. But preserving a community also requires ensuring it has an economic future beyond being a theme park, and that means integration into an economic bloc of meaningful scale, which many minority language communities could not constitute on their own.
nyamlae
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by nyamlae »

PeterC wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:16 am Neither the Canadian First Nations nor the Australian Aboriginals actually speak their indigenous languages at home as their first language (to the best of my knowledge), so in that regard their situation is already a lot worse than the TIbetans, who like most people in China do not speak Mandarin as a first language. The question above was about the language of instruction in schools, and I'm pretty sure nobody is advocating for using one of the many first nation languages as the language of instruction in Canadian schools, which would only further the isolation of that community.

I agree that the situation of those two communities is deplorable and it is widely accepted by their governments that over a century of racist policies, first by the former colonial governments and then continued by the independent governments, caused that situation: it involves a whole lot more than languages.

Nobody said this was straightforward. Preserving a culture in part requires preserving the language. But preserving a community also requires ensuring it has an economic future beyond being a theme park, and that means integration into an economic bloc of meaningful scale, which many minority language communities could not constitute on their own.
It's ironic that you made snide comments above about how I should inform myself before forming an opinion, and yet here you are making completely uninformed comments about indigenous languages in Canada.

There are still many native speakers of indigenous languages in Canada who speak those languages at home; I have personally met several such people. Indigenous people in Canada are widely calling for increased education in their languages, including having indigenous languages as the primary language of instruction. Steps are being taken to create immersion programs for Kwak'wala, Mi'kmak, and other indigenous languages.

Canada is a signatory to UNDRIP, whose article 14 declares:
Indigenous peoples have the right to establish and control their educational systems and institutions providing education in their own languages, in a manner appropriate to their cultural methods of teaching and learning.
States shall, in conjunction with indigenous peoples, take effective measures, in order for indigenous individuals, particularly children, including those living outside their communities, to have access, when possible, to an education in their own culture and provided in their own language.
[edited - Kim]
ཨ་ཀུ་ཧ་ྈྐ།
ཨི་ཙུ་ཡ་ཤ།
རྀ་ཊུ་ར་ཥ།
ལྀ་ཏུ་ལ་ས།
ཨུ་པུ་ཝ་ྉྤ།

https://tibetanlanguage.school/
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Tibetan as a written language

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Locked for review and cooling-off.

Some posts edited or removed to remove offensive and/or off-topic material including metadiscussion.

Reminders:
Personal attacks/insults are never appropriate.
If someone posts something you think breaks the rules, report it instead of replying to it.

A suggestion:
The topic was Tibetan as a written language and the discussion was really good until you drifted off into the politics of indigenous languages. Please return to the topic.

Topic re-opened.

:namaste:
Kim
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