Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
T@sh!
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:53 pm

Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by T@sh! »

So when covid hit in 2020 I was sitting in my bedroom checking my emails, Facebook etc… an array of lamas offering online empowerments popped up everywhere - from well known lamas to more obscure ones. It was like a smorgasbord of teachings, lungs, kha-go’s and empowerments - and all online. I thought to myself at the time wow this is really the bright side of this whole crazy pandemic because it’s made the Dharma so much more accessible to people all over the world - I don’t think so anymore. I remember a Nyingma lama with whom I first took refuge vows many years ago saying that receiving an empowerment online is impossible, he even found it comical. I have come to a very final conclusion: online empowerments cause obstacles to arise. This has been my experience. I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.

Another lama even said that these online empowerments is one big experiment…

My feeling is that online empowerments are mainly meant to plant the seed. I may be wrong, some people may be able to receive an empowerment online. I don’t think I’m one of them.

The only empowerments I personally take as valid are the ones received in person.

Anyway, I just wanted to share.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by PeterC »

Depends on the type of empowerment. This topic has been done to death, frankly.
Inedible
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 6:00 am

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Inedible »

T@sh! wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:50 am I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.
Why are you still looking for empowerments? I thought that the point of having them was being able to do your own practice afterward and get results. You got them in person so the job should be done.
User avatar
lelopa
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by lelopa »

Also it depends on what you think an empowerment/initiation is.
If you think a wang is drinking/eating something that was given by the teacher and the Guru touches your head,
than an online-empowerment is impossible.
If you think an empowerment depends mainly on sounds & explanations f.e., then it is very different.
Lost In Transmission
User avatar
Lingpupa
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 am
Location: Lunigiana (Tuscany)

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Lingpupa »

lelopa wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:03 am Also it depends on what you think an empowerment/initiation is.
If you think a wang is drinking/eating something that was given by the teacher and the Guru touches your head,
than an online-empowerment is impossible.
If you think an empowerment depends mainly on sounds & explanations f.e., then it is very different.
Neither of those is really a fair characterisation of empowerment, as I suspect you well know.

Some people still think an online empowerment can be more than a bit of a blessing. Good luck to them, but I'm not one.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Kai lord
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Kai lord »

Inedible wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:52 am
T@sh! wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:50 am I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.
Why are you still looking for empowerments? I thought that the point of having them was being able to do your own practice afterward and get results. You got them in person so the job should be done.
Empowerments are more than just blessings and granting permissions. You can get results just from receiving empowerments alone. One of core sadhana practices is self empowerment practices.

So every empowerment is an opportunity for you to purify your mind stream, remove your obstacles and obtain realization
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
T@sh!
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:53 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by T@sh! »

[quote=Inedible post_id=657090 time=1677473538 user_id=14301]
[quote=T@sh! post_id=657072 time=1677459017 user_id=17308]
I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.
[/quote]

Why are you still looking for empowerments? I thought that the point of having them was being able to do your own practice afterward and get results. You got them in person so the job should be done.
[/quote]

I’m not. But during covid when panic and fear was high everybody wanted some sort of protection practice or healing practice of some sort. It is human after all.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by PeterC »

Lingpupa wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:38 am
lelopa wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:03 am Also it depends on what you think an empowerment/initiation is.
If you think a wang is drinking/eating something that was given by the teacher and the Guru touches your head,
than an online-empowerment is impossible.
If you think an empowerment depends mainly on sounds & explanations f.e., then it is very different.
Neither of those is really a fair characterisation of empowerment, as I suspect you well know.
As I’m sure you know, there are many different forms of empowerments: some cannot be given without substances, some cannot be given without objects, some are given entirely by speech. In in-person empowerments, the speech and sometimes the image of the vajra master is transmitted electronically: one argument for being able to give, say, a don wang online is that it’s exactly the same as that. There are other arguments.
Some people still think an online empowerment can be more than a bit of a blessing. Good luck to them, but I'm not one.
You’re entitled to your opinion. Many eminent lamas hold a different opinion. It’s best not to be too categorical about these matters.
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

T@sh! wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:50 am So when covid hit in 2020 I was sitting in my bedroom checking my emails, Facebook etc… an array of lamas offering online empowerments popped up everywhere - from well known lamas to more obscure ones. It was like a smorgasbord of teachings, lungs, kha-go’s and empowerments - and all online. I thought to myself at the time wow this is really the bright side of this whole crazy pandemic because it’s made the Dharma so much more accessible to people all over the world - I don’t think so anymore. I remember a Nyingma lama with whom I first took refuge vows many years ago saying that receiving an empowerment online is impossible, he even found it comical. I have come to a very final conclusion: online empowerments cause obstacles to arise. This has been my experience. I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.

Another lama even said that these online empowerments is one big experiment…

My feeling is that online empowerments are mainly meant to plant the seed. I may be wrong, some people may be able to receive an empowerment online. I don’t think I’m one of them.

The only empowerments I personally take as valid are the ones received in person.

Anyway, I just wanted to share.
I've had very good experience with online empowerments especially Garchen Rinpoche and others

Many of the Vajramasters giving these are highly realised if they thought it would create obstacles and no benefit why would they bestow them?

It's your experience anyway but beyond that comes across opinionated
Tata1
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Tata1 »

T@sh! wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:50 am So when covid hit in 2020 I was sitting in my bedroom checking my emails, Facebook etc… an array of lamas offering online empowerments popped up everywhere - from well known lamas to more obscure ones. It was like a smorgasbord of teachings, lungs, kha-go’s and empowerments - and all online. I thought to myself at the time wow this is really the bright side of this whole crazy pandemic because it’s made the Dharma so much more accessible to people all over the world - I don’t think so anymore. I remember a Nyingma lama with whom I first took refuge vows many years ago saying that receiving an empowerment online is impossible, he even found it comical. I have come to a very final conclusion: online empowerments cause obstacles to arise. This has been my experience. I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.

Another lama even said that these online empowerments is one big experiment…

My feeling is that online empowerments are mainly meant to plant the seed. I may be wrong, some people may be able to receive an empowerment online. I don’t think I’m one of them.

The only empowerments I personally take as valid are the ones received in person.

Anyway, I just wanted to share.
Im sure HHDL, Sakya trindzin are giving us online empowerment to give us obstacles :thumbsup:
T@sh!
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:53 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by T@sh! »

[quote=Tata1 post_id=657173 time=1677529396 user_id=11064]
[quote=T@sh! post_id=657072 time=1677459017 user_id=17308]
So when covid hit in 2020 I was sitting in my bedroom checking my emails, Facebook etc… an array of lamas offering online empowerments popped up everywhere - from well known lamas to more obscure ones. It was like a smorgasbord of teachings, lungs, kha-go’s and empowerments - and all online. I thought to myself at the time wow this is really the bright side of this whole crazy pandemic because it’s made the Dharma so much more accessible to people all over the world - I don’t think so anymore. I remember a Nyingma lama with whom I first took refuge vows many years ago saying that receiving an empowerment online is impossible, he even found it comical. I have come to a very final conclusion: online empowerments cause obstacles to arise. This has been my experience. I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.

Another lama even said that these online empowerments is one big experiment…

My feeling is that online empowerments are mainly meant to plant the seed. I may be wrong, some people may be able to receive an empowerment online. I don’t think I’m one of them.

The only empowerments I personally take as valid are the ones received in person.

Anyway, I just wanted to share.
[/quote]

Im sure HHDL, Sakya trindzin are giving us online empowerment to give us obstacles :thumbsup:
[/quote]

I’m not saying that at all. I am speaking from MY personal experience.
Last edited by Ayu on Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Strange. Quote is not fixable.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17090
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Really depends on the person.

If someone has little to no devotion or enthusiasm and is just sort of collecting online empowerment while ignoring real lineage relationships (online or otherwise), of course it’s mostly meaningless.

If there is a real connection, enthusiasm, etc. than for sure there is benefit there, otherwise (qualified and respected) Lamas probably wouldn’t do them.

IMO it is always worth making in person events whenever possible, but the availability of online in depth teaching and even empowerments is a blessing that shouldn’t be overlooked.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by PeterC »

T@sh! wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:41 am I am speaking from MY personal experience.
So you’re saying that based on your own personal experience, not based on any particular textual support, and in contrast to the advice of the Dalai Lama, the Sakya Trichen and Garchen Rinpoche, it doesn’t work?
Archie2009
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Archie2009 »

PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:51 am
T@sh! wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:41 am I am speaking from MY personal experience.
So you’re saying that based on your own personal experience, not based on any particular textual support, and in contrast to the advice of the Dalai Lama, the Sakya Trichen and Garchen Rinpoche, it doesn’t work?
He might not have figured out how to use the Quote function, but he's The Omniscient T@sh!
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by PeterC »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:55 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:51 am
T@sh! wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:41 am I am speaking from MY personal experience.
So you’re saying that based on your own personal experience, not based on any particular textual support, and in contrast to the advice of the Dalai Lama, the Sakya Trichen and Garchen Rinpoche, it doesn’t work?
He might not have figured out how to use the Quote function, but he's The Omniscient T@sh!
He’s entitled to his opinions, we all are in this area since by definition there’s no textual answer one way or another. I just think it helps to be clear about what’s an opinion, what’s an authority, etc.
User avatar
Lingpupa
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 am
Location: Lunigiana (Tuscany)

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Lingpupa »

PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:34 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:55 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:51 am

So you’re saying that based on your own personal experience, not based on any particular textual support, and in contrast to the advice of the Dalai Lama, the Sakya Trichen and Garchen Rinpoche, it doesn’t work?
He might not have figured out how to use the Quote function, but he's The Omniscient T@sh!
He’s entitled to his opinions, we all are in this area since by definition there’s no textual answer one way or another. I just think it helps to be clear about what’s an opinion, what’s an authority, etc.
Indeed. And let's not fall into the fallacy of taking any authority as infallible. Even HHDL :anjali: and the others misjudge things sometimes.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
User avatar
Shaiksha
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Shaiksha »

This is not a new thing. Before COVID, CNNR conducted online transmissions and Direct Introductions online. Many of their students have testified the efficacy of the results. I myself received online pointing out instructions from a particular teacher - while I did not feel anything at that time, when I put the instructions into practice - the results have been one of the most profound in my practice.

When attending in-person empowerments, blessings, etc, there are that "vibrations" or "magical feeling" or whatever you call it, being that close to the lamas. However, it sometimes does not last and soon you get back to your normal self. Each to their own, I suppose.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by PeterC »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:47 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:34 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:55 am

He might not have figured out how to use the Quote function, but he's The Omniscient T@sh!
He’s entitled to his opinions, we all are in this area since by definition there’s no textual answer one way or another. I just think it helps to be clear about what’s an opinion, what’s an authority, etc.
Indeed. And let's not fall into the fallacy of taking any authority as infallible. Even HHDL :anjali: and the others misjudge things sometimes.
Sure, nobody is infallible. However those arguing that certain types of empowerment may be given by these means have presented their authorities and their arguments. Those claiming that they cannot generally claim authority from their personal opinions and unnamed lamas. We have no textual basis for the validity of electronic transmissions. But I would note that if electronic transmissions are invalid, then most people who received large-scale empowerments like the Kalacakra did not, in fact, receive anything, as essential parts of the ceremony are communicated via electronic broadcast to most of the crowd.
User avatar
Kelwin
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by Kelwin »

T@sh! wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:50 am I have come to a very final conclusion: online empowerments cause obstacles to arise. This has been my experience. I have received empowerments in person and they have all yielded amazing results, but online ones… not so much.
Without going into the whole debate about online/offline.. why do you think the arising of obstacles means that an empowerment did not work? Could the opposite not be the case as well?
T@sh!
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:53 pm

Re: Empowerments, Online and Obstacles

Post by T@sh! »

[quote=PeterC post_id=657622 time=1677923461 user_id=5626]
[quote=T@sh! post_id=657371 time=1677717665 user_id=17308] I am speaking from MY personal experience.
[/quote]

So you’re saying that based on your own personal experience, not based on any particular textual support, and in contrast to the advice of the Dalai Lama, the Sakya Trichen and Garchen Rinpoche, it doesn’t work?
[/quote]

Don't try to misinterpret or obfuscate what I'm saying with your "so you're saying...".
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”