karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

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floatingbubbles07
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karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by floatingbubbles07 »

I was wondering, if the law of karma says we have to repay it, and being reborn in Amitabha's pure land means that we stay there until we attain enlightenment, does it mean that we have to repay all of our karma first before being reborn there? Or does it mean that by reciting Amitabha's name we can cancel having to repay our karma by being reborn there?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

floatingbubbles07 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:10 pm I was wondering, if the law of karma says we have to repay it
Repay it to what it whom?
No, that’s not what karma is or how karma it works.

I don’t think it’s how the 18th vow works either.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Reciting the Buddha's name purifies eons of negative karma and grants immeasurable merit (Contemplation Sutra).
However, we also have karma from beginningless time, so beings are described as belonging to the Three Classes. They are born in what are called the Nine Grades. This basically means all kinds of people can be born there.
The Three Pure Land Sutras describe the differences among them in terms of their perception of the Pure Land and effects of their residual karma.
Some negative potential fruits of karma, such as rebirth in the lower realms or experiencing suffering, are prevented by the nature of the Pure Land, by Amida Buddha's vows.

Once there, all the activities you do are part of the Two Accumulations of gaining merit and wisdom. That is, the path to buddhahood is still traversed. For example, making offerings to buddhas and receiving Dharma teachings from Amida Buddha.
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DewachenVagabond
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Your view of karma seems to be more like the Jain understanding of karma, where it has to all be burned off before awakening is possible. That's not how karma is understood in Buddhism. Buddhas have transcended karma.
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by Aemilius »

DewachenVagabond wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:14 am Your view of karma seems to be more like the Jain understanding of karma, where it has to all be burned off before awakening is possible. That's not how karma is understood in Buddhism. Buddhas have transcended karma.
In Lankavatara sutra, Chapter Seven, On Transformation, LXXXIX, Mahamati asks the Blessed One thus:

"...that the primary limit is unknown and yet cessation is knowable; that there are evil ones, their activities, and left-over karma? Blessed One, (facts of) karma-hindrance are said to be shown (by the Tathagata in the incident of) Cañcā the daughter of a Brahmin, of Sundarī the daughter of a mendicant, an empty bowl, etc.; how can the Blessed One with these unexhausted evils attain all-knowledge? "

The question of "the unexhausted karma or left-over-karma of the Tathagata" is also mentioned by Vasubandhu, somewhere, -I hope I can find it. Any way, you can surely see the thinking concerning these incidents in the Buddha's life?

The Buddha answers to Mahamati in Lankavatara:

"...All the Buddhas of Transformation do not owe their existence to karma; in them there is no Tathagatahood, but apart from them there is no Tathagatahood either. Like the potter who is dependent on various combinations, (the Buddha of Transformation) does his work for sentient beings; he teaches the doctrine meeting conditions, but not the doctrine that will establish the truth as it is, which belongs to the noble realm of self-realisation.

Further, Mahāmati, on account of the cessation of the six Vijñānas the ignorant and simple-minded look for nihilism, and on account of their not understanding the Ālayavijñāna they have eternalism. The primary limit of the discrimination of their own minds is unknown, Mahāmati. Emancipation is obtained when this discrimination of Mind itself ceases. With the abandonment of the fourfold habit-energy the abandonment of all faults takes place.

So it is said:

1. The three vehicles are no-vehicle; there is no Nirvana with the Buddhas; it is pointed out that the assurance of Buddhahood is given to all that are freed from faults.

2. Ultimate intuitive knowledge, Nirvana that leaves no remnant, —this is told according to the hidden meaning in order to give encouragement to the timid.

3. Knowledge is produced by the Buddhas, and the path is pointed out by them: they move in it and not in anything else, therefore there is no Nirvana with them.

4. Existence, desire, form (rūpa), theorising—this is the fourfold habit-energy; this is where the Manovijñāna takes its rise and the Ālaya and Manas abide.

5. Nihilism and the idea of impermanency rise because of the Manovijñāna, the eye-vijñāna, etc.; eternalism rises from (the thought that) there is no beginning in Nirvana, intelligence, and theorisation.

Here Ends the Seventh Chapter, "On Transformation."

Does it make sense?
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by zhx »

We have this chinese term called 带业往生 when referring to rebirth in Sukhavati. It means rebirth by bringing our own karma with us. Amitabha will accept anyone despite their karma as long as one fulfills the 3 conditions (faith/vows/practice). Once reborn there, the karma that you have won't be allowed to ripen due to the conditions of Pure Land. Once you progress into a dharmabody Bodhisattva and return to the Saha World, karma may ripen but you won't really be affected by it.
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by DewachenVagabond »

zhx wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:54 pm We have this chinese term called 带业往生 when referring to rebirth in Sukhavati. It means rebirth by bringing our own karma with us. Amitabha will accept anyone despite their karma as long as one fulfills the 3 conditions (faith/vows/practice). Once reborn there, the karma that you have won't be allowed to ripen due to the conditions of Pure Land. Once you progress into a dharmabody Bodhisattva and return to the Saha World, karma may ripen but you won't really be affected by it.
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floatingbubbles07
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by floatingbubbles07 »

zhx wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:54 pm We have this chinese term called 带业往生 when referring to rebirth in Sukhavati. It means rebirth by bringing our own karma with us. Amitabha will accept anyone despite their karma as long as one fulfills the 3 conditions (faith/vows/practice). Once reborn there, the karma that you have won't be allowed to ripen due to the conditions of Pure Land. Once you progress into a dharmabody Bodhisattva and return to the Saha World, karma may ripen but you won't really be affected by it.
Can I ask what a dharma body Bodhisattva is, and does it mean we don't stay in the pure land until we reach enlightenment? Is it possible that a human who's creating bad karma is a dharma body Bodhisattva but not know it because they've forgotten about being in the pure land?
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by Zhen Li »

floatingbubbles07 wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:26 am
zhx wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:54 pm We have this chinese term called 带业往生 when referring to rebirth in Sukhavati. It means rebirth by bringing our own karma with us. Amitabha will accept anyone despite their karma as long as one fulfills the 3 conditions (faith/vows/practice). Once reborn there, the karma that you have won't be allowed to ripen due to the conditions of Pure Land. Once you progress into a dharmabody Bodhisattva and return to the Saha World, karma may ripen but you won't really be affected by it.
Can I ask what a dharma body Bodhisattva is, and does it mean we don't stay in the pure land until we reach enlightenment? Is it possible that a human who's creating bad karma is a dharma body Bodhisattva but not know it because they've forgotten about being in the pure land?
On the contrary, you will stay in the Pure Land until you attain enlightenment, and then you will leave and return to saṃsāra to aid other beings. Otherwise, while a bodhisattva "in-training," you can visit all other buddhas for training from the Pure Land. There is no use for someone who has attained the Dharma body to enter the Pure Land—the purpose of the Pure Land is to aid beings who have difficulty practising.

I think what you mean by Dharma body bodhisattva is probably a bodhisattva who is a manifestation of the Dharma body. No, in that case they would not give rise to ignorance again and forget that they are awakened, this is because they are manifestations, they are like a projection.

For instance, if you see a projection on a movie screen, it may look like the people in there are moving and interacting, but they don't have any actual intentionality or thought. Likewise, a manifestation of the Buddha is just responding to the karmic winds of your mind, it is not that the bodhisattva or the Buddha that is arising as the result of ignorance and dependent origination. If you "return" to the Sahā world as a manifestation of the Dharma body, karma will not ripen, and it is also not possible for such a manfiestation to create bad karma.
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Re: karma and Amitabha Pure Land rebirth

Post by ronnymarsh »

floatingbubbles07 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:10 pm I was wondering, if the law of karma says we have to repay it, and being reborn in Amitabha's pure land means that we stay there until we attain enlightenment, does it mean that we have to repay all of our karma first before being reborn there? Or does it mean that by reciting Amitabha's name we can cancel having to repay our karma by being reborn there?
Karma means action.
Actions can have three qualities: positive, negative, and neutral.
Each action generates a result that is related to its quality. Positive actions generate positive results, negative actions generate negative results.
This relationship needs three elements: action, condition and effect.
When a sentient being performs a conscious action (with intention) it creates a subconscious imprint with the information related to it.
This "mark" remains in a latent state, in a suspended state, until favorable conditions arise for its manifestation.
When conditions arise, actions generate their result.

In Mahayana Buddhism the simile of the seed is used. The seeds remain in a latent state, suspended indefinitely, until they are placed in the ground and nourished, giving rise to a new plant. But if we destroy the germ of the seed, even if it is placed in the ground, it will not sprout.

Buddhist practices make it possible to both accumulate positive karma and "burn the seeds of negative karma." To be reborn in the Pure Land, for example, means to be in an environment where the conditions for manifesting negative karma will never appear, in this way the being can cultivate the seed of enlightenment and burn the seeds of negative karma without disturbance.
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