Natural thogal?

[Archie2009]

Heart said:

All activity in the mind is thoughts.

This was my understanding as well. Can't give scriptural sources, though.

[Vasana]

The term prajñā is used in various ways in Dzogchen. Trekcho is not an analytical prajñā, but it is a prajñā. For example, the Blazing Lamp Commentary states:

Therefore, in the present, wisdom arises the moment mere consciousness is without reification of thought.

Longchenpa writes in the Lama Yangthig trekcho manual:

In that state of momentary natural equipoise, dharmakāya is the reality of the pristine consciousness of vidyā in which thoughts have ceased.

And we know that on his deathbed, when people had doubts, he directed them to consult Lama Yangthig.

Thanks for these. Is there a good place to find a decent Dzogchen glossary somewhere that combines multiple translators ? I find it easier to connect the dots (common meaning) of phrases when explained with the terminology of self-liberation and the four yogas & ting nge 'dzins of semde. I'm assuming 'momentary natural equipoise' and 'consciousness without reification of thought' can be as momentary as the self-liberation of a single thought/one or a few finger-snaps?

Maybe I'm just chasing words for the sake of it, but it helps refresh the view.

[heart]

All activity in the mind is thoughts...

is this your personal definition or is this what root texts say?

"memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it.." don't come alone, they are part of personality and personal history, so they contain both language and reflection - whenever they arise, they are accompanied by thinking=constantly narrated by internal dialogue. but to say that "all activity in the mind are thoughts" is definitely an overstretch imho. calm abiding/zhine - is it a mental activity? if yes, then what thought is this? visualizing a deity - is it a mental activity? if yes - is it a "thought"?

Yes, calm abiding/zhine is a mental activity, visualizing a deity is a mental activity. Yes, they are "thoughts" just like emotions, memories and so on. It isn't my own idea at all.

[ThreeVows]

All activity in the mind is thoughts. Memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it, is all considered thoughts. Some people think that only when they are engaging in conscious thinking that is thinking, it is not like that.

Thought to share this, from Longchenpa as found in the notation part of Finding Rest Volume 1 by Padmarkara (quoting his auto-commentary), if it is deemed relevant enough or interesting enough:

When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within. To habituate oneself to this is called the path to enlightenment. It is quite simply to persevere in this practice, remaining uninterruptedly, day and night, in a state in which sleepiness and idleness are abandoned. As it is said in the Pancakrama,

"When all activity of mind and mental factors
Comes to complete rest, it is then that
Luminous, primordial wisdom manifests,
Free of concepts, without center or periphery."

In this context, the mind is defined as the cognitions that assume the existence of the three worlds and examine them accordingly. Since they are the turbidity that conceals suchness, if they are made to subside completely, one has access to nonconceptual primordial wisdom. As it is said in the Satyadvayavibhanga,

"The mind and mental factors are the cognitions
That falsely ascribe existence to the triple world."

The detecting cognition [rtog pa] that perceives the general presence of an object when it first sees it is the 'mind'. It is the first moment of knowledge of an utpala lotus (for example). Then, when the particular features of the object are adverted to, there is the mental factor of examination or discernment [dpyod pa]. These are the cognitions of the flower's blue color, its round shape, its pistil and stamens, and so on. As it is said in the Madhyantavibhaga,

"That which sees the thing is consciousness.
Its features then are seen by mental factors."

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

[Jules 09]

All activity in the mind is thoughts. Memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it, is all considered thoughts. Some people think that only when they are engaging in conscious thinking that is thinking, it is not like that.

Thought to share this, from Longchenpa as found in the notation part of Finding Rest Volume 1 by Padmarkara (quoting his auto-commentary), if it is deemed relevant enough or interesting enough:

When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within. To habituate oneself to this is called the path to enlightenment. It is quite simply to persevere in this practice, remaining uninterruptedly, day and night, in a state in which sleepiness and idleness are abandoned. As it is said in the Pancakrama,

"When all activity of mind and mental factors
Comes to complete rest, it is then that
Luminous, primordial wisdom manifests,
Free of concepts, without center or periphery."

In this context, the mind is defined as the cognitions that assume the existence of the three worlds and examine them accordingly. Since they are the turbidity that conceals suchness, if they are made to subside completely, one has access to nonconceptual primordial wisdom. As it is said in the Satyadvayavibhanga,

"The mind and mental factors are the cognitions
That falsely ascribe existence to the triple world."

The detecting cognition [rtog pa] that perceives the general presence of an object when it first sees it is the 'mind'. It is the first moment of knowledge of an utpala lotus (for example). Then, when the particular features of the object are adverted to, there is the mental factor of examination or discernment [dpyod pa]. These are the cognitions of the flower's blue color, its round shape, its pistil and stamens, and so on. As it is said in the Madhyantavibhaga,

"That which sees the thing is consciousness.
Its features then are seen by mental factors."

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Cone Beckham wrote:

How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?

To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it.

[Zoey85]

Faith and devotion is the head of meditation in Kagyu and Nyingma. In Dzogchen this is attested to by Rongzompa and Longchenpa and basically every master. Longchenpa's chapter on Tregcho is all about a decision to non meditation. No one can DO no meditation. It comes by way of faith. There is Buddhanature. You hear the descriptions. You consider them. Then you ease into meditation naturally. There is nothing to perceive. In Thogal And Kalachakra you perceive things. But ultimately there is nothing to perceive, not perceive, do or not do. It's perfect rest.

Right, faith and devotion are crucial to receive the direct introduction from the guru, but actually one *can* do non-meditation in the sense that one abides in what has been pointed out again and again. Surely you aren't suggesting that a practitioner waits around with faith for the blessings of dharmakaya to descend whenever they decide to...

What does Rangzom say in Establishing Appearances? He gives three ways.

In Genuine Meaning the empowerment is to begin togal with postures and gazes. And a guru is one who never separates from the yidam.

I've had several Dzogchen empowerments, very many. And this jñana idea is way overplayed here. People are deceiving themselves. I have people around with this idea of simplicity doing nothing etc. All kinds of emotional nonsense happens. It's just an idea. You cannot abide in one pointed non meditation without the proper dependencies in a session.

This kind of Dzogchen with high talk is just a status symbol and self praise. I don't believe in it at all.

Khenpo Namdrol said the Chetsun Nyingthig is so effective because of the devotion element. When the Chinese took prisoners some Lamas recited Guru Rinpoche's mantra and flew into the sky.

All is lost without faith and devotion. All. And yes with faith and you rest with the firm conviction all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever. That's right. That's all you really have to do. Yoga and appearances, self evident stuff is fun to talk about, but that's not dharmakaya.

Believe in yourselves. And check your opinions at the front door.

(?)


Since you've had "very many" dzogchen empowerments then you will be able to understand that the point isn't to abide one-pointedly in sessions of non-meditation (as you mentioned), but to elicit rigpa in it's nakedness in all situations, through guru yoga or whatever other methods work for you.

So, when one is resting with faith in the firm conviction that all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever (your words) what is it one is resting in? Some sort of restful, passive state? This is absurd. I hope I've misunderstood you.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "this kind of dzogchen with high talk" and so on. Recognizing one's own nature is an experiential thing; it has nothing to do with high talk or believing or not believing things.

But best of luck.

[Malcolm]

Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.

Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.

This literally contradicts what he says in Genuine Meaning, because he does not present them in the passage before or during tregcho, but as the preliminaries to togal.

The Tshig don mdzod is a commentary which expands on an earlier text, the rdzog chen bcu gcig pa by Nyi ma 'Bum (1158-1213), which Longchenpa had in front of him when he wrote the Tshig don mdzod.

His treatment of the four cog bzhags precisely matches its place in Nyi ma 'bum's earlier text, in topic eight, which is first of three topics the path (Buddhahood in this Life is identical to Nyibum's earlier text, apart from intro and colophon). This topic is divided into two sections, the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects and the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa. In this presentation, the four cog bzhags are included in the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects, and they are distributed among the four yogas: view, meditation, conduct, and result. In this presentation, the four cho bzhags are presented in a gradual way, is if they are to be practiced one after the other, and they presented just before the section on trekcho.

The section on treckho and thogal are the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa, and cover trekcho in terms of the three words of Garab Dorje, and thogal's four visions, postures, and gazes.

But the Chos dbyings mdzod is Longchenpa's declaration of his own realization, and its commentary, the Treasury of Citations (Lung gyi gter mdzod) is the last of the seven treasures and stands as Longchenpa's defining work. Everyone agrees this is so. The entire text is on trekcho, and it contains a detailed presentation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 10.

Not only this, but in his Theg mchog mdzod, his two volume detailed commentary on the general meaning of the seventeen tantras, Lonchenpa includes his explanation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 19, the Trekcho chapter, in the middle of a detailed presentation of the three words, in the direct introduction part.

The Treasury of Citations, which is entirely devoted to trekcho, devotes an entire chapter to direct introduction, chapter 9, and devotes an entire chapter to the four cog bzhags and three samadhis, which are branches of the latter.

[Archie2009]

The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha.

You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.

Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)

An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.

Oral teachings and commentary given by Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche on Khenchen Jigme Phunstok’s dzogchen terma Placing Buddhahood Within Reach and Garab Dorje’s The Three Statements That Strike the Vital Point.

https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript

After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:



What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.

[conebeckham]

All activity in the mind is thoughts. Memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it, is all considered thoughts. Some people think that only when they are engaging in conscious thinking that is thinking, it is not like that.

Thought to share this, from Longchenpa as found in the notation part of Finding Rest Volume 1 by Padmarkara (quoting his auto-commentary), if it is deemed relevant enough or interesting enough:

When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within. To habituate oneself to this is called the path to enlightenment. It is quite simply to persevere in this practice, remaining uninterruptedly, day and night, in a state in which sleepiness and idleness are abandoned. As it is said in the Pancakrama,

"When all activity of mind and mental factors
Comes to complete rest, it is then that
Luminous, primordial wisdom manifests,
Free of concepts, without center or periphery."

In this context, the mind is defined as the cognitions that assume the existence of the three worlds and examine them accordingly. Since they are the turbidity that conceals suchness, if they are made to subside completely, one has access to nonconceptual primordial wisdom. As it is said in the Satyadvayavibhanga,

"The mind and mental factors are the cognitions
That falsely ascribe existence to the triple world."

The detecting cognition [rtog pa] that perceives the general presence of an object when it first sees it is the 'mind'. It is the first moment of knowledge of an utpala lotus (for example). Then, when the particular features of the object are adverted to, there is the mental factor of examination or discernment [dpyod pa]. These are the cognitions of the flower's blue color, its round shape, its pistil and stamens, and so on. As it is said in the Madhyantavibhaga,

"That which sees the thing is consciousness.
Its features then are seen by mental factors."

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Cone Beckham wrote:

How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?

To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it.

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.

[Shaiksha]

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.

Another thing I would like to add: in Dzogchen, non conceptuality refers to not grasping to thoughts or movements of the mind when they arise. It does not mean being in a blank state without thoughts. If you cultivate the blank state without thoughts in this life, you either get reborn as an animal or a deva in the formless realm.

In fact, if you get attached to the experience of clarity, you will get reborn to the form realm and attachment to the experience of bliss will get you reborn in the desire realm and so on.

[Natan]

Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.

Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.

This literally contradicts what he says in Genuine Meaning, because he does not present them in the passage before or during tregcho, but as the preliminaries to togal.

The Tshig don mdzod is a commentary which expands on an earlier text, the rdzog chen bcu gcig pa by Nyi ma 'Bum (1158-1213), which Longchenpa had in front of him when he wrote the Tshig don mdzod.

His treatment of the four cog bzhags precisely matches its place in Nyi ma 'bum's earlier text, in topic eight, which is first of three topics the path (Buddhahood in this Life is identical to Nyibum's earlier text, apart from intro and colophon). This topic is divided into two sections, the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects and the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa. In this presentation, the four cog bzhags are included in the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects, and they are distributed among the four yogas: view, meditation, conduct, and result. In this presentation, the four cho bzhags are presented in a gradual way, is if they are to be practiced one after the other, and they presented just before the section on trekcho.

The section on treckho and thogal are the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa, and cover trekcho in terms of the three words of Garab Dorje, and thogal's four visions, postures, and gazes.

But the Chos dbyings mdzod is Longchenpa's declaration of his own realization, and its commentary, the Treasury of Citations (Lung gyi gter mdzod) is the last of the seven treasures and stands as Longchenpa's defining work. Everyone agrees this is so. The entire text is on trekcho, and it contains a detailed presentation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 10.

Not only this, but in his Theg mchog mdzod, his two volume detailed commentary on the general meaning of the seventeen tantras, Lonchenpa includes his explanation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 19, the Trekcho chapter, in the middle of a detailed presentation of the three words, in the direct introduction part.

The Treasury of Citations, which is entirely devoted to trekcho, devotes an entire chapter to direct introduction, chapter 9, and devotes an entire chapter to the four cog bzhags and three samadhis, which are branches of the latter.

One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho. I also mentioned all of this was for those with inclination towards wisdom appearances not objective appearances. We are in the land of wisdom appearances here.

The fact of the matter, and something the Kagyu are quick to point out is Dzogchen is an innovation. These guys were figuring stuff out and the target kept moving. They didn't like that and so they stayed with traditional two stage Vajrayana.

But another thing you have to recognize is Thogal is much more profound than Tregcho, because it's faster. Dharmakaya is dharmakaya. We don't have to argue about that. But you are effectively elevating Tregcho above Thogal based on Tregcho being equated with Dharmadhatu. It's not that way.

Longchenpa was correct in Genuine Meaning about the path. He was waxing poetic in Dharmadhatu. All your historical interpretation is a figment of the imagination.

[Natan]

Thought to share this, from Longchenpa as found in the notation part of Finding Rest Volume 1 by Padmarkara (quoting his auto-commentary), if it is deemed relevant enough or interesting enough:

Cone Beckham wrote:

How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?

To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it.

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.

Cone. I respect you. My lama respects you. Inevitable.... But.... We don't have to open any cans. The path is easy, just takes time

[Natan]

The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha.

You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.

Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)

An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.

Oral teachings and commentary given by Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche on Khenchen Jigme Phunstok’s dzogchen terma Placing Buddhahood Within Reach and Garab Dorje’s The Three Statements That Strike the Vital Point.

https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript

After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:



What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.

Look in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.

No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.

[Natan]

All activity in the mind is thoughts...

is this your personal definition or is this what root texts say?

"memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it.." don't come alone, they are part of personality and personal history, so they contain both language and reflection - whenever they arise, they are accompanied by thinking=constantly narrated by internal dialogue. but to say that "all activity in the mind are thoughts" is definitely an overstretch imho. calm abiding/zhine - is it a mental activity? if yes, then what thought is this? visualizing a deity - is it a mental activity? if yes - is it a "thought"?

Yes, calm abiding/zhine is a mental activity, visualizing a deity is a mental activity. Yes, they are "thoughts" just like emotions, memories and so on. It isn't my own idea at all.

And thought is the dharmakaya. The creation and completion are non-dual.

[Natan]

Right, faith and devotion are crucial to receive the direct introduction from the guru, but actually one *can* do non-meditation in the sense that one abides in what has been pointed out again and again. Surely you aren't suggesting that a practitioner waits around with faith for the blessings of dharmakaya to descend whenever they decide to...

What does Rangzom say in Establishing Appearances? He gives three ways.

In Genuine Meaning the empowerment is to begin togal with postures and gazes. And a guru is one who never separates from the yidam.

I've had several Dzogchen empowerments, very many. And this jñana idea is way overplayed here. People are deceiving themselves. I have people around with this idea of simplicity doing nothing etc. All kinds of emotional nonsense happens. It's just an idea. You cannot abide in one pointed non meditation without the proper dependencies in a session.

This kind of Dzogchen with high talk is just a status symbol and self praise. I don't believe in it at all.

Khenpo Namdrol said the Chetsun Nyingthig is so effective because of the devotion element. When the Chinese took prisoners some Lamas recited Guru Rinpoche's mantra and flew into the sky.

All is lost without faith and devotion. All. And yes with faith and you rest with the firm conviction all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever. That's right. That's all you really have to do. Yoga and appearances, self evident stuff is fun to talk about, but that's not dharmakaya.

Believe in yourselves. And check your opinions at the front door.

(?)


Since you've had "very many" dzogchen empowerments then you will be able to understand that the point isn't to abide one-pointedly in sessions of non-meditation (as you mentioned), but to elicit rigpa in it's nakedness in all situations, through guru yoga or whatever other methods work for you.

So, when one is resting with faith in the firm conviction that all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever (your words) what is it one is resting in? Some sort of restful, passive state? This is absurd. I hope I've misunderstood you.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "this kind of dzogchen with high talk" and so on. Recognizing one's own nature is an experiential thing; it has nothing to do with high talk or believing or not believing things.

But best of luck.

I read this more closely now. I have a lot going on....

What is one resting in? Confidence.

You got a teacher. You got the transmission. And you relax. There's nowhere to rest in. You drop all that.

[Malcolm]

One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho.

No. And you are clearly mistaken in your understanding of this point. So, I am going to leave it here since you are misrepresenting the text you claim supports your position.

[conebeckham]

Cone Beckham wrote:



To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:



Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it.

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.

Cone. I respect you. My lama respects you. Inevitable.... But.... We don't have to open any cans. The path is easy, just takes time

Not sure why this has become about me. Or personal at all.

[Jules 09]

Thought to share this, from Longchenpa as found in the notation part of Finding Rest Volume 1 by Padmarkara (quoting his auto-commentary), if it is deemed relevant enough or interesting enough:

Cone Beckham wrote:

How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?

To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."

Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it.

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.

I would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.

As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:

The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view.

[Zoey85]

What does Rangzom say in Establishing Appearances? He gives three ways.

In Genuine Meaning the empowerment is to begin togal with postures and gazes. And a guru is one who never separates from the yidam.

I've had several Dzogchen empowerments, very many. And this jñana idea is way overplayed here. People are deceiving themselves. I have people around with this idea of simplicity doing nothing etc. All kinds of emotional nonsense happens. It's just an idea. You cannot abide in one pointed non meditation without the proper dependencies in a session.

This kind of Dzogchen with high talk is just a status symbol and self praise. I don't believe in it at all.

Khenpo Namdrol said the Chetsun Nyingthig is so effective because of the devotion element. When the Chinese took prisoners some Lamas recited Guru Rinpoche's mantra and flew into the sky.

All is lost without faith and devotion. All. And yes with faith and you rest with the firm conviction all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever. That's right. That's all you really have to do. Yoga and appearances, self evident stuff is fun to talk about, but that's not dharmakaya.

Believe in yourselves. And check your opinions at the front door.

(?)


Since you've had "very many" dzogchen empowerments then you will be able to understand that the point isn't to abide one-pointedly in sessions of non-meditation (as you mentioned), but to elicit rigpa in it's nakedness in all situations, through guru yoga or whatever other methods work for you.

So, when one is resting with faith in the firm conviction that all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever (your words) what is it one is resting in? Some sort of restful, passive state? This is absurd. I hope I've misunderstood you.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "this kind of dzogchen with high talk" and so on. Recognizing one's own nature is an experiential thing; it has nothing to do with high talk or believing or not believing things.

But best of luck.

I read this more closely now. I have a lot going on....

What is one resting in? Confidence.

Confidence in what?

[Pema Rigdzin]

(I deleted my duplicate post)