Natural thogal?

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Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:54 pm
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod - (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag mthong gi brda chad).
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:12 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:54 pm
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod - (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag mthong gi brda chad).
BTW, in the śrāvaka schools, Buddha defined two paths: a śamatha yāna and a vipaśanā yāna, reflecting two different ways of attaining stream entry, etc. It would not be incorrect to consider the trekcho the vipaśanā yāna of Dzogchen, and thogal the śamatha yāna of Dzogchen.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:16 pm It would not be incorrect to consider the trekcho the vipaśanā yāna of Dzogchen, and thogal the śamatha yāna of Dzogchen.
I have heard it said, basically, that all Buddhist teachings can be condensed within these two general categories of śamatha and vipaśanā, which also relate to the rupakaya and dharmakaya respectively.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Passing By
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:12 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:54 pm
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod - (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag mthong gi brda chad).
On that note, with regards to the quote from the Rangshar you posted earlier about unceasing nonattachment.....Deciding that attachment has the nature of nonattachment, ie, having attachment and preferences for stuff nevertheless, while having made the decision that such attachments are inherently empty displays....Is this contradictory and a deviation in trekcho?
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:12 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:54 pm
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod - (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag mthong gi brda chad).
On that note, with regards to the quote from the Rangshar you posted earlier about unceasing nonattachment.....Deciding that attachment has the nature of nonattachment, ie, having attachment and preferences for stuff nevertheless, while having made the decision that such attachments are inherently empty displays....Is this contradictory and a deviation in trekcho?
No. Dzogchen does not render one a nonfunctional human being. We can still like prefer coffee to tea, etc.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:30 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:12 pm

Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod - (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag mthong gi brda chad).
On that note, with regards to the quote from the Rangshar you posted earlier about unceasing nonattachment.....Deciding that attachment has the nature of nonattachment, ie, having attachment and preferences for stuff nevertheless, while having made the decision that such attachments are inherently empty displays....Is this contradictory and a deviation in trekcho?
No. Dzogchen does not render one a nonfunctional human being. We can still like prefer coffee to tea, etc.
Right, thank you
Archie2009
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Archie2009 »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:33 pm
heart wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:59 am
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:56 pm



:smile:

"I will repeat this over and over: in the true state of rigpa, there is no namtog."

- Tulku Urgyen, as it is, Vol 2 (p.169.)
“When remaining in awareness itself, every thought movement, no matter what kind, is like a drawing in air.”
~Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
Try studying the words of your guru's guru, in 'as it is, Vol.2' (pp.168-169.)

A student poses the question: "Can there be thinking during rigpa?"

The response from Tulku Urgyen may be of benefit.

:smile:
At this point you appear like a Jehovah's Witness ringing people's doorbell unbidden.
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conebeckham
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by conebeckham »

Archie2009 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:35 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:33 pm
heart wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:59 am

“When remaining in awareness itself, every thought movement, no matter what kind, is like a drawing in air.”
~Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
Try studying the words of your guru's guru, in 'as it is, Vol.2' (pp.168-169.)

A student poses the question: "Can there be thinking during rigpa?"

The response from Tulku Urgyen may be of benefit.

:smile:
At this point you appear like a Jehovah's Witness ringing people's doorbell unbidden.
How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:38 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:35 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:33 pm

Try studying the words of your guru's guru, in 'as it is, Vol.2' (pp.168-169.)

A student poses the question: "Can there be thinking during rigpa?"

The response from Tulku Urgyen may be of benefit.

:smile:
At this point you appear like a Jehovah's Witness ringing people's doorbell unbidden.
How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts"?
Well on the plus side after Jules takes rebirth in the formless realm we wont have to have this debate for a few trillion years :rolling:
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Natan wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:07 pm
Prove it from the text Precious Treasury of Genuine Meaning.
If you’d been paying attention, you’d have seen that I stated it was in his autocommentary to his *Chöying Dzod* that Longchenpa associated the 4 chogzhags with both trekchö and tögal, and that those who claim they only apply to togal are mistaken. Again, the Chöying Dzod autocommentary is where you’ll see that.

I can’t speak for your experience with American men, but in this case that’s some lazy nonsense misdirection because I’ve not only quoted Longchenpa himself, but also pointed out that Khenchen Namdrol himself repeatedly, over and over, that for togal to succeed it must be grounded in trekchöd’s rigpa. That is his verbatim term, which stands out to me in his various Dzogchen commentaries, because I never heard any other lama specifically phrase it as “trekcho’s rigpa,” only “rigpa.” That is how Rinpoche presents the Dzogchen path. He absolutely discusses trekchö in his Chetsun Nyingthig commentaries, his Yeshe Lama commentary, and his Tsig Don Mdzod commentary. So for you to claim otherwise is a lie.

It’s rich you’d comment on the arrogance of American men when you have been aggressively arrogant and condescending long before anyone even approached that level with you.

As for Thachen, I’ve heard the term, but I’ve not received teachings on its details, and it’s not relevant to our discussion of Nyingthig as it is on its own level.

You need to chill and try to play nicer with vajra siblings. Your behavior here is outrageous.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Natan wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:19 pm
Exactly. I probably come off as arrogant. It seems I have to stand up for myself. Also it's a survival mechanism. I live in a dangerous place and people are teaching me how not to get robbed again and or killed. So I turned up the wrathful energy. However I am honest. I don't misrepresent the teaching.
I just saw this. Maybe some more patience and grace toward you is in order. Maybe we could make it mutual.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:02 pm Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.


Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.
Thank you for taking the time to post this (and by the looks of it, translating it?). I didn’t have the patience to do so.
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Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:40 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:07 pm
Prove it from the text Precious Treasury of Genuine Meaning.
If you’d been paying attention, you’d have seen that I stated it was in his autocommentary to his *Chöying Dzod* that Longchenpa associated the 4 chogzhags with both trekchö and tögal, and that those who claim they only apply to togal are mistaken. Again, the Chöying Dzod autocommentary is where you’ll see that.

I can’t speak for your experience with American men, but in this case that’s some lazy nonsense misdirection because I’ve not only quoted Longchenpa himself, but also pointed out that Khenchen Namdrol himself repeatedly, over and over, that for togal to succeed it must be grounded in trekchöd’s rigpa. That is his verbatim term, which stands out to me in his various Dzogchen commentaries, because I never heard any other lama specifically phrase it as “trekcho’s rigpa,” only “rigpa.” That is how Rinpoche presents the Dzogchen path. He absolutely discusses trekchö in his Chetsun Nyingthig commentaries, his Yeshe Lama commentary, and his Tsig Don Mdzod commentary. So for you to claim otherwise is a lie.

It’s rich you’d comment on the arrogance of American men when you have been aggressively arrogant and condescending long before anyone even approached that level with you.

As for Thachen, I’ve heard the term, but I’ve not received teachings on its details, and it’s not relevant to our discussion of Nyingthig as it is on its own level.

You need to chill and try to play nicer with vajra siblings. Your behavior here is outrageous.
You cannot. Oh buddy. I caught a tiger by the tail.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:08 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:19 pm
Exactly. I probably come off as arrogant. It seems I have to stand up for myself. Also it's a survival mechanism. I live in a dangerous place and people are teaching me how not to get robbed again and or killed. So I turned up the wrathful energy. However I am honest. I don't misrepresent the teaching.
I just saw this. Maybe some more patience and grace toward you is in order. Maybe we could make it mutual.
Let's do it. I'm not really claiming all the parts don't work in unison. I got the traditional teaching from important teachers. There are degrees of subtly and variation in the presentation that are useful in expanding the mind. We don't want this to become calcified and subject to fanaticism.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:02 pm Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.


Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.
This literally contradicts what he says in Genuine Meaning, because he does not present them in the passage before or during tregcho, but as the preliminaries to togal. That's pretty weird. So apparently he was criticizing himself. No one gets their rigpa'i tsal Wang and is now practicing Tregcho. Tregcho takes a long time. So who will practice Togal? Folks can get their rigpa'i tsal Wang and go practice Togal.

The bottom line and the reality is his passage on Tregcho in Genuine Meaning accords with Rongzompa. There's no formal meditation method going on. The view, practice, meditation are all out. That's a lower system. Thogal is a yoga practice in fact. That's just how it is. You sit and get into mudra. Then these four are what you manage.That is why it is a method. If you want to say kadag and lhundrub, ok. The lamps in unison ok. But to say you do two paths at the same time is nonsense. No one has skill in seeing emptiness in until a long time. You choose how to spend time. These are just facts.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yagmort
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by yagmort »

conebeckham wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:38 pm How can he even find the doorbell, if he's resting with no thoughts?
having no thoughts does not render one unconscious and unaware.
unless we have different definitions of what a "thought" is.
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Shaiksha
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Shaiksha »

yagmort wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:13 am having no thoughts does not render one unconscious and unaware.
unless we have different definitions of what a "thought" is.
Correct. But, in order to perform the task of 'ringing a bell', you need to have mental activities, such as identifying where the bell is, where the button is and imputing the knowledge that if I press that button, there will be sounds and we expect someone to open the door. These mental activities are so natural to us that we do not realize that there are actually thoughts involved - not necessarily discursive thoughts, but at least intuitive thinking is involved.
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yagmort
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by yagmort »

Shaiksha wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:40 am ...These mental activities are so natural to us that we do not realize that there are actually thoughts involved - not necessarily discursive thoughts, but at least intuitive thinking is involved.
i dunno what dzogchen tantras' definition of a "thought" is, but i wouldn't call this "mental activities" or "decision makings" a "thought", otherwise i don't see the difference between Jules finding a doorbell and a pet cat who figured out to open a door by jumping on a door handle..

from my POV "thought" and "thinking process" have essential connection with a language and reflection

but anyways, this just goes to show before arguing with each other we first need to agree upon the meanings of the terms we use.
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heart
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:05 am
Shaiksha wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:40 am ...These mental activities are so natural to us that we do not realize that there are actually thoughts involved - not necessarily discursive thoughts, but at least intuitive thinking is involved.
i dunno what dzogchen tantras' definition of a "thought" is, but i wouldn't call this "mental activities" or "decision makings" a "thought", otherwise i don't see the difference between Jules finding a doorbell and a pet cat who figured out to open a door by jumping on a door handle..

from my POV "thought" and "thinking process" have essential connection with a language and reflection

but anyways, this just goes to show before arguing with each other we first need to agree upon the meanings of the terms we use.
All activity in the mind is thoughts. Memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it, is all considered thoughts. Some people think that only when they are engaging in conscious thinking that is thinking, it is not like that.
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by yagmort »

heart wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:50 am All activity in the mind is thoughts...
is this your personal definition or is this what root texts say?

"memories, fantasies, emotions, grasping, clinging, knowing, you name it.." don't come alone, they are part of personality and personal history, so they contain both language and reflection - whenever they arise, they are accompanied by thinking=constantly narrated by internal dialogue. but to say that "all activity in the mind are thoughts" is definitely an overstretch imho. calm abiding/zhine - is it a mental activity? if yes, then what thought is this? visualizing a deity - is it a mental activity? if yes - is it a "thought"?
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