Natural thogal?

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AmidaB
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Natural thogal?

Post by AmidaB »

Tashi delek to all of you,
During our recent casual breakfast conversation with my (non-buddhist) partner popped up the topic of concentration development in the case of attention deficient people. Out of the blue she began to talk about her childhood playing with the sun and light. It seems to me that she developed some thogal like visions and told me that she could easily call them up anytime even now.
I don't want to ruin her opportunity if she is a natural "talent" and in the same time she is generally afraid of any 'mystical' and/or religion related experience due to a previous abusive relationship with a yoga cult member.
Any of your help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
fckw
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by fckw »

Thogal relies on trekchod. If her view is not based on that then it's by definition not thogal but just karmic vision.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by dharmafootsteps »

This is normal, many people have this experience in childhood.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by stoneinfocus »

Thogal visions (and all related physical/visual phenomena) are related to the anatomy of the body, so technically anyone can experience these things. Most people have experienced some phenomena that is related to dzogchen anatomy without understanding what it is. But without the view, they're just pretty little tricks of the light.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by stoneinfocus »

However I should clarify that having some of these experiences is NOT thogal, which is reliant on the postures and gazes.
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho. He presents them as separate paths. In the case of spontaneous experience of inner light, it seems the distinction to be made is taking them into a yoga path until their conclusion, not simply playing around.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:42 pm Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho.
The tantras that are his sources certainly do.
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Natan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:42 pm Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho. He presents them as separate paths. In the case of spontaneous experience of inner light, it seems the distinction to be made is taking them into a yoga path until their conclusion, not simply playing around.
Trekchöd is the view. Togal is the meditation. Togal visions will not develop without the view of trekchöd.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
Vasana
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Vasana »

There's a big difference between thogal visions developed and stabilized through correct study and view, and basic, unstable entoptic phenomena that anyone can experience, intentionally or unintentionally. One example of this is that many people can see little specks of the rainbow in their eyelashes when squinting their eyes in sunny weather. That doesn't indicate any kind of high capacity. And for that matter, seeing a rainbow after some light or heavy rain doesn't always indicate some magical auspicious Buddhist occurrence every single time :P

It's worth mentioning every time that pursuing this stuff can lead you to stray and delay any real progress because you end up building a net of hopes, concepts and excitation. This can happen with any kind of meditation experience/nyam, let alone vision.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:13 am
Natan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:42 pm Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho. He presents them as separate paths. In the case of spontaneous experience of inner light, it seems the distinction to be made is taking them into a yoga path until their conclusion, not simply playing around.
Trekchöd is the view. Togal is the meditation. Togal visions will not develop without the view of trekchöd.
I am referring to instructions given by Longchenpa in The Precious Treasury of Clear Meaning where he says the view, action, meditation and fruit are part of a lower method than Tregcho and Thogal, because the latter are for those who are accustomed to objective appearances. For those accustomed to clear light appearances there is no view, practice, meditation or fruit.

Tregcho he presents as a path of its own of what he calls the primordial decision: to non meditation where the fruit comes about just before Bardo. Thogal is the method for rainbow body with the four chozhag, postures and gazes and four visions where there is no appearances of bardo. Each is simply a separate path, one for those who are indolent and the other for those who are engaged.

He states clearly that this is based on the pith instructions of his guru Kumaraja. So, just reading the Dzogchen tantras is insufficient.

Thus, what I am saying here is special to the lineage of Longchenpa, but is not Longchen Nyingthig which is from Jigmed Lingpa. It is for your information but I received this from Khenpo Namdrol. It is official in the lineage of Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.

I post this because there is somehow a very one sided teaching of Dzogchen appearing here regularly which is sort of an outlier system. The effort and expense to present Khenpo Namdrol's version was immense. Dzogchen cannot be spun. It has a lineage. What I am presenting is the practical reality of it.
Last edited by Natan on Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:50 pm
Natan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:42 pm Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho.
The tantras that are his sources certainly do.
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:50 pm
Natan wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:42 pm Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho.
The tantras that are his sources certainly do.
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions
Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:01 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:50 pm

The tantras that are his sources certainly do.
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions
Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.
I read his definitive treatment of the subject. And all the Treasuries. Did you think he forgot? This is the teaching of Khenpo Namdrol.

As a matter of fact, the prerequisite to thogal ie the space like no meditation, the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:01 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:36 pm
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions
Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.
I read his definitive treatment of the subject. And all the Treasuries. Did you think he forgot? This is the teaching of Khenpo Namdrol.

As a matter of fact, the prerequisite to thogal ie the space like no meditation, the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.
You do you.

In any case, the klong gsal tantra is pretty clear:

If the meaning of trekcho is not clear,
even if thogal arises, it will possess subject and object.
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 pm the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.
I believe you've misunderstood something or taken something out of context. This just doesnt seem right to me.

For example, in Khenpo Namdrols commentary on the Precious Treasury of the Genuine Meaning, Year 4 page 535 (PDF) it says:
The four modes of placement are common to trekcho. They are necessary at the time of trekchos practice. These four modes of placement are also necessary at the time of togals practice.
So here we have the claim that the four chok shyaks, which Berotsana translates as the four modes of placement, is specifically related to and required by trekchod practice. I grant that its conceivable that the four modes of placement could be explained in the context of shamatha, but at their core they are connected to trekchod and are not shamatha since this would block ones ability to practice trekchod, since in trekchod we dont take up an object of meditation and we especially dont hyper focus on it with laser like attention like we do during shamatha. So both things cant be true, it cant be that they are required for trekchod but also are shamatha, since trekchod would then be impossible.
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:45 am
Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 pm the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.
I believe you've misunderstood something or taken something out of context. This just doesnt seem right to me.

For example, in Khenpo Namdrols commentary on the Precious Treasury of the Genuine Meaning, Year 4 page 535 (PDF) it says:
The four modes of placement are common to trekcho. They are necessary at the time of trekchos practice. These four modes of placement are also necessary at the time of togals practice.
So here we have the claim that the four chok shyaks, which Berotsana translates as the four modes of placement, is specifically related to and required by trekchod practice. I grant that its conceivable that the four modes of placement could be explained in the context of shamatha, but at their core they are connected to trekchod and are not shamatha since this would block ones ability to practice trekchod, since in trekchod we dont take up an object of meditation and we especially dont hyper focus on it with laser like attention like we do during shamatha. So both things cant be true, it cant be that they are required for trekchod but also are shamatha, since trekchod would then be impossible.
Of course it's all connected. But... Tregcho is wisdom. And if one has wisdom already why would the visions of thogal be in stages of insight? It should be a post-realization mastery. But it's not. It is for novices who are diligent. The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha. The insight level in thogal happens by the third vision more or less.and the four modes of placement are used for Tregcho as well. You can call it practicing Tregcho, but Longchenpa does not. He calls it what it is, a preliminary to thogal, resting....
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:09 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:01 pm

Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.
I read his definitive treatment of the subject. And all the Treasuries. Did you think he forgot? This is the teaching of Khenpo Namdrol.

As a matter of fact, the prerequisite to thogal ie the space like no meditation, the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.
You do you.

In any case, the klong gsal tantra is pretty clear:

If the meaning of trekcho is not clear,
even if thogal arises, it will possess subject and object.
Longchenpa talks about all sorts of deviations that are possible in thogal. I'm thinking he is speaking from practical experience and not just talking about scriptures. He makes it clear this comes from the pith instructions from his guru. His presentation of Tregcho there is very unusual and clear. He could have cited this passage you did, bit he didn't, why? Personal instructions from his guru. He is not just outlining what the tantras say. He is outlining the actual path as it is taught. In Chetsun Nyingthig commentary he never calls it Tregcho. He calls it yoga of space. He goes so far as to say having seized the vital prana mind... By accomplishing the luminosity of Vipashyana that is the real shyamatha. That would be buddhahood.

Obviously there is still a path of Thogal. So the Vipashyana is just an epithet. Tregcho is a path to wisdom. If one is already realized then the only point of Thogal is just to dissolve elements in wisdom. If one has realized Tregcho one can cremate one's own body without external fire. If that is the pre reqs for Thogal then basically no one can get this instruction.

Therefore Tregcho is required for Thogal is just a ruse. In reality, there is no possiblity of the fourth vision being dualistic. But if one remains in the four chozhag and continues it will terminate phenomena.

Longchenpa says numerous time in the text that it is familiarity that speeds the visions along. Of course if one has understood Tregcho then togal visions will proceed quickly as he says in days. But these guys these days are into decades and you think they understood Tregcho? Not even shyamatha.

Hoisting up Tregcho as the precursor is frak guys up because they no one understands it. It is beyond comprehension by definition. Four chozhag they can understand.

Tregcho is a path for the indolent who simply trust unequivocally in the blessing of dharmakaya.

Thogal is for the diligent who need to see to believe.

This is what teachers say.

Your teacher, the book, can differ. But actual gurus are in agreement.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:27 pm The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha.
You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.
Archie2009
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Archie2009 »

A very funky idea.
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:15 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:27 pm The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha.
You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.
There's no realization before realization. Either tregcho is realization or it's not. What happens before realization is shyamatha. Then there is insight. It cannot be otherwise. If the realization proceeds shyamatha, it is shyamatha with a bit of Vipashyana. No one has Vipashyana alone. And it is depending on shyamatha. We are into recursiveness.

Give rigpa'i tsal Wang and and now go practice Tregcho. Is that Tregcho? Or Shyamatha touched upon Vipashyana. You cannot say it is perfect Vipashyana touched upon by shyamatha. So where is the Tregcho here?

You either practice tregcho or Thogal, not both. Practitioners of Thogal have the same result as Thogal or different? It's different.

Treasury on Dharmadhatu does not supercede Treasury of Clear Meaning, and it does not relate back. It stand alone.

But do me a favor, ok? Don't refer to a text without citing a passage. My money goes to noodles. I ordered a bunch I'd dharma gear from Oregon and it didn't get here. You want to prove a point? Don't make it dependent on international shipping.

But be careful because it calls it question, were y upou there? Does your interpretation carry blessing or did you make it up?

Precious Treasury of Clear Meaning gives a specific description of rigpa'i tsal Wang and it's not what ChNN did. It combines postures and gazes. This is the definitive text on Dzogchen that exists from a lama.
Last edited by Natan on Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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