Natural thogal?

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Wow, I’ve been on this forum since its inception and I’ve just had my first post disappeared. If the moderators knew how much astounding objective truth I held back when I made my comments, they’d have made them themselves. And I got no message about my post being deleted, explaining why it was deleted. They should have at least left the majority of my post which was solid arguments against the person in question’s assertions here. Oh well. This isn’t really the place to discuss Dzogchen anyway.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
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Sādhaka
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Sādhaka »

I saw it P.R.

It was probably the last part that you posted.

Yea though, they could have just edited those few lines out, then left the rest up
narhwal90
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by narhwal90 »

I moderated both posts because the converstation was getting personal and liable to become argumentative.
Archie2009
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Archie2009 »

Natan wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:15 pm

You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.
Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)

An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.
Oral teachings and commentary given by Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche on Khenchen Jigme Phunstok’s dzogchen terma Placing Buddhahood Within Reach and Garab Dorje’s The Three Statements That Strike the Vital Point.
https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript

After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:

Image

What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
Look in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.

No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
I have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.

However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

AmidaB wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:44 pm It seems to me that she developed some thogal like visions and told me that she could easily call them up anytime even now.
Everyone is trying to answer with regards to specific terms for specific experiences. But what your friend described perhaps was not very specific.
If one had had a connection to something like thogal in a previous life, then it isn’t entirely ‘coming out of nowhere’ in this life.
The other thing to remember is that clear vision is the mind’s natural state, which for most people is obscured by samsaric confusion. It’s not something g like tummo, where one learns to project the heat of the body, etc. So if a child doesn’t have a lot of baggage to clear away in the first place, then all sorts of clarity and insight is possible because it’s already there to begin with. But most children have too many ordinary distractions and a three year old isn’t thinking, “this seems like it might be some level of yogic attainment!”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Archie2009
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Archie2009 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:14 amEveryone is trying to answer with regards to specific terms for specific experiences.
Image
"The empty vessel makes the loudest sound." - William Shakespeare
:lol:
Natan
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Zoey85 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:26 pm
Natan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:07 am
Zoey85 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:13 pm

(?)


Since you've had "very many" dzogchen empowerments then you will be able to understand that the point isn't to abide one-pointedly in sessions of non-meditation (as you mentioned), but to elicit rigpa in it's nakedness in all situations, through guru yoga or whatever other methods work for you.

So, when one is resting with faith in the firm conviction that all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever (your words) what is it one is resting in? Some sort of restful, passive state? This is absurd. I hope I've misunderstood you.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "this kind of dzogchen with high talk" and so on. Recognizing one's own nature is an experiential thing; it has nothing to do with high talk or believing or not believing things.

But best of luck.
I read this more closely now. I have a lot going on....

What is one resting in? Confidence.
Confidence in what?
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:44 am
Natan wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pm
Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)

An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.



https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript

After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:

Image

What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
Look in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.

No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
I have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.

However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
They also don't treat it as Tregcho. They are precursor to thogal. Period. Punto. Fim.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

narhwal90 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:48 pm I moderated both posts because the converstation was getting personal and liable to become argumentative.
I just removed several more because it still did get personal and argumentative.

Next stage is that the topic gets locked.

:namaste:
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Locked for cooling-off period

...and re-opened.

:namaste:
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Josef
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Josef »

Archie2009 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:44 am
Natan wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pm
Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)

An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.



https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript

After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:

Image

What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
Look in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.

No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
I have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.

However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
He also clearly refutes the notion of trekcho being some kind of Dzogchen śamatha practice in his Yeshe Lama commentary.
There are also detailed and illuminating sections on trekcho in the Chetsun Nyingthig commentaries.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:18 am
Natan wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:12 pm
One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho.
No. And you are clearly mistaken in your understanding of this point. So, I am going to leave it here since you are misrepresenting the text you claim supports your position.
Prove it
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Sādhaka
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Sādhaka »

Here’s the rub, & whatnot:

Shamatha only leads to deva realms at best, as anyone who has studied a bit, is aware of.

Tregcho may have its so-called ‘limitations’, yet Kadag-Chenpo would be the penultimate.

Longchenpa, Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen, and others, have shewn the superiorities of Thogal; yet also have said that Trekcho by itself can also lead to complete Liberation (Atomic sKu)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:04 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:18 am
Natan wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:12 pm
One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho.
No. And you are clearly mistaken in your understanding of this point. So, I am going to leave it here since you are misrepresenting the text you claim supports your position.
Prove it
I already did, but you chose to ignore my earlier reply.
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conebeckham
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by conebeckham »

Jules 09 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:25 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:25 am
Jules 09 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:33 pm

:good:

Cone Beckham wrote:



To requote Longchenpa from the citation above:



Buddhas can find doorbells without having to think about it. :smile:
For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.
I would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.

As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:
The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view.

The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Jules 09
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:25 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:25 am

For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.

To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.
I would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.

As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:
The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view.

The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
With regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.

So what?
Last edited by Jules 09 on Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:14 pm
With regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.

So what?
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
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heart
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by heart »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:14 pm
conebeckham wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:25 pm

I would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.

As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:


The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
With regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.

So what?
The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Jules 09
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote:
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Heart wrote:
The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
Ha! Ha!..

- The Twelve Vajra Laughs


Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.

- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
Last edited by Jules 09 on Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Natural thogal?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:55 pm Malcolm wrote:
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Heart wrote:
The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
Ha! Ha!..

- The Twelve Vajra Laughs


Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.

- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
Look into the wisdom of all-pervading great emptiness, the diverse activities of thoughts arose as play. Marvelous, no matter what one does, it is liberated as non-arising in the ceaseless expanse, ha ha!

--The Heap of Jewels Tantra
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