Natural thogal?
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Re: Natural thogal?
Wow, I’ve been on this forum since its inception and I’ve just had my first post disappeared. If the moderators knew how much astounding objective truth I held back when I made my comments, they’d have made them themselves. And I got no message about my post being deleted, explaining why it was deleted. They should have at least left the majority of my post which was solid arguments against the person in question’s assertions here. Oh well. This isn’t really the place to discuss Dzogchen anyway.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
Re: Natural thogal?
I saw it P.R.
It was probably the last part that you posted.
Yea though, they could have just edited those few lines out, then left the rest up
It was probably the last part that you posted.
Yea though, they could have just edited those few lines out, then left the rest up
Re: Natural thogal?
I moderated both posts because the converstation was getting personal and liable to become argumentative.
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Re: Natural thogal?
I have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.Natan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pmLook in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pmUntil that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)
An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.
https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcriptOral teachings and commentary given by Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche on Khenchen Jigme Phunstok’s dzogchen terma Placing Buddhahood Within Reach and Garab Dorje’s The Three Statements That Strike the Vital Point.
After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:
What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Natural thogal?
Everyone is trying to answer with regards to specific terms for specific experiences. But what your friend described perhaps was not very specific.
If one had had a connection to something like thogal in a previous life, then it isn’t entirely ‘coming out of nowhere’ in this life.
The other thing to remember is that clear vision is the mind’s natural state, which for most people is obscured by samsaric confusion. It’s not something g like tummo, where one learns to project the heat of the body, etc. So if a child doesn’t have a lot of baggage to clear away in the first place, then all sorts of clarity and insight is possible because it’s already there to begin with. But most children have too many ordinary distractions and a three year old isn’t thinking, “this seems like it might be some level of yogic attainment!”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Natural thogal?
PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:14 amEveryone is trying to answer with regards to specific terms for specific experiences.
"The empty vessel makes the loudest sound." - William Shakespeare
Re: Natural thogal?
DharmakayaZoey85 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:26 pmConfidence in what?Natan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:07 amI read this more closely now. I have a lot going on....Zoey85 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:13 pm
(?)
Since you've had "very many" dzogchen empowerments then you will be able to understand that the point isn't to abide one-pointedly in sessions of non-meditation (as you mentioned), but to elicit rigpa in it's nakedness in all situations, through guru yoga or whatever other methods work for you.
So, when one is resting with faith in the firm conviction that all the qualities of dharmakaya will appear whenever (your words) what is it one is resting in? Some sort of restful, passive state? This is absurd. I hope I've misunderstood you.
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "this kind of dzogchen with high talk" and so on. Recognizing one's own nature is an experiential thing; it has nothing to do with high talk or believing or not believing things.
But best of luck.
What is one resting in? Confidence.
Re: Natural thogal?
They also don't treat it as Tregcho. They are precursor to thogal. Period. Punto. Fim.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:44 amI have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.Natan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pmLook in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pm
Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)
An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.
https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript
After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:
What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
- Kim O'Hara
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- Kim O'Hara
- Former staff member
- Posts: 7064
- Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
- Location: North Queensland, Australia
Re: Natural thogal?
Locked for cooling-off period
...and re-opened.
Kim
...and re-opened.
Kim
Re: Natural thogal?
He also clearly refutes the notion of trekcho being some kind of Dzogchen śamatha practice in his Yeshe Lama commentary.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:44 amI have permission from Khenpo Namdrol to read the tshig don mdzod translation and the transcripts of his teachings on them, though I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it all.Natan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:30 pmLook in Genuine Meaning if you can. It's a restricted text. It's not on the internet. But those who have it can look. This is the most important guru book on Dzogchen. The four chozhag are presented after Tregcho and among the preliminaries to thogal. All the words dedicated to Tregcho are that it is a different path. And as such it is very abstract. Nothing about any guru yoga there. His section on empowerment is not about Tregcho. It's about Thogal. The guru shows postures and gazes and the visual experiences. The treatment on Tregcho is very brief. All the details about signs are results are from chozhag which he never calls Tregcho in the text and Thogal, except in the section on Bardo when the Tregcho results appear.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 pm
Until that becomes available, this could be of interest to some. (At least it is to me, currently reading it.)
An explanation of the four cog bzhags in a trekchö presentation by Khenchen Namdrol from 2006 also published by Berotsana.
https://www.berotsana.org/collections/d ... transcript
After a discussion of Dzogchen preliminaries here begins the discussion of treckchö:
What I'm reading does not support Natan's contention.
No one thinks Tregcho is higher than Thogal. The word Tregcho does not appear in Chetsun Nyingthig. The four visions do, however.
However, I think the also restricted teaching transcripts from 2006 I mentioned above do not treat the four cog bzhag as a śamatha.
There are also detailed and illuminating sections on trekcho in the Chetsun Nyingthig commentaries.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Natural thogal?
Re: Natural thogal?
Here’s the rub, & whatnot:
Shamatha only leads to deva realms at best, as anyone who has studied a bit, is aware of.
Tregcho may have its so-called ‘limitations’, yet Kadag-Chenpo would be the penultimate.
Longchenpa, Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen, and others, have shewn the superiorities of Thogal; yet also have said that Trekcho by itself can also lead to complete Liberation (Atomic sKu)
Shamatha only leads to deva realms at best, as anyone who has studied a bit, is aware of.
Tregcho may have its so-called ‘limitations’, yet Kadag-Chenpo would be the penultimate.
Longchenpa, Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen, and others, have shewn the superiorities of Thogal; yet also have said that Trekcho by itself can also lead to complete Liberation (Atomic sKu)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Natural thogal?
I already did, but you chose to ignore my earlier reply.
- conebeckham
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Re: Natural thogal?
Jules 09 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:25 pmI would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:25 amFor Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.
To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.
As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:
The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view.
The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Natural thogal?
With regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pmJules 09 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:25 pmI would suggest that, in the context of Dzogchen, seeing through the "Illusion of Duality" does not open any cans of worms.conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:25 am
For Buddhas the object is known without defiling mental factors. This is clear. For meditators on the path, it seems the issue is the "duality" that is the issue and the cause of "mind," the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. So, is the object of our practice to banish nonvirtuous mental factors or to wake from "the illusion of duality?" I submit to you that it is the latter, not the former. As for what that means, or how it is approached in practice--I think it is more useful to correctly understand or ascertain the nature of thoughts, with regard to one's "knowledge," than to expend effort in preventing or stopping thoughts.
To continually postulate the goal as "Absence of Thoughts" is a mis-direction, IMO. Of course, we have to be careful with this phrase "Illusion of Duality" as well, as it opens up several different cans of worms.
As Tsele Natsok Rangdrol wrote, in The Heart of the Matter:
The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view.
The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
So what?
Last edited by Jules 09 on Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Natural thogal?
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Re: Natural thogal?
The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.Jules 09 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:14 pmWith regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:45 pm
The "can of worms" I referred to was the fact that there are erroneous ideas or conceptual elaborations about what this "non duality" reflects. It's not some shared mind, etc., but is that which is personally experienced as one's own experience. Thoughts, and Thinker. Object and Subject. There's your illusory bifurcation. Tsele Natsok Rangdrol does not say that the falsity of delusion means there are no longer "thoughts." He says "we should bring all conceptual and nonconceptual states onto the path, neither affirming nor denying them but embracing them with the vital point"--(Empowerment, pg.53). He also quotes "To desire nonthought is a huge concept."
So what?
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Natural thogal?
Malcolm wrote:
- The Twelve Vajra Laughs
Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.
- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
Heart wrote:So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Ha! Ha!..The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
- The Twelve Vajra Laughs
Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.
- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
Last edited by Jules 09 on Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Natural thogal?
Look into the wisdom of all-pervading great emptiness, the diverse activities of thoughts arose as play. Marvelous, no matter what one does, it is liberated as non-arising in the ceaseless expanse, ha ha!Jules 09 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:55 pm Malcolm wrote:
Heart wrote:So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Ha! Ha!..The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
- The Twelve Vajra Laughs
Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.
- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.
--The Heap of Jewels Tantra