Manjushri in China

[Empty Cloud]

Dear community,

As quoted: “. The sources for the most part come from two traditions: the Chinese tradition of geomancy and the Indian tradition of geomancy. The Chinese tradition of geomancy that is drawn on here includes the presentations composed by the five forms of Manjushri who were active in emanations in China, as well as the four emanated emperors, Confucius, the four great scholars, and so on. In that way, there are an innumerable number of ancient treatises in Chinese on geomancy. “

My question

1. Who were the five forms of Manjushri who were active in (?as) emanations in China
2. Who were the 4 emanated emperors
3. Who were the 4 great scholars

Quoted from
Geomancy: The Collection of All That Is Precious

Although the general topic of the text is how to practice in retreat, one of the issues involved in that is how to determine if a proposed retreat site is appropriate and if it has the necessary conditions conducive to practice. We now begin the study of the examination of the ground, or geomancy, and it is called “The Collection of All That Is Precious.” The presentation of geomancy here is not something that Karma Chakme himself made up, but is drawn from the various older traditions that he has brought together.

The Topic of Geomancy in General and the Reasons for It



“The Collection of All That Is Precious” is divided into six sections. Following the invocation to Manjushri, NAMO ARYA MANJUSHRIYE, the topic of geomancy in general and the reasons for it are introduced. For someone who has realized absolute truth and therefore experiences samsara and nirvana as inseparable, there is no need to be concerned with geomancy because that person is no longer affected by the conditions of relative truth. As long as you are affected by such conditions, then some of the conditions that affect you have to do with the conditions of the place in which you live. The arrangement or form of a place has a definite effect on the beings that are associated with or inhabit that place.



All physical things, the external environment, and the contents and inhabitants of that environment, are physically composed of the five elements. The strength and stability of these elements determines the strength and stability of the circumstances of the beings who inhabit the environment. This is especially true with the element of earth, which is extremely powerful. The reason that the earth element is so influential is that the earth element primarily determines the structure or content of our environment.



All of the various ways that the different countries and societies on the four continents including Jambudvipa, India, China, Mongolia, Tibet, and so on have developed and prospered or not prospered throughout history is fundamentally a result of the physical environment in which these societies have developed. When the environment is flourishing, the inhabitants will flourish.



When the environment is ruined, the inhabitants will be ruined. You could say, of course, that the cause of this is their own previous actions, but the circumstantial conditions that allowed these causes to ripen, were for the most part, found in the environment.



There are many texts, such as the Geomancy of Phurba, that present the reason why the arrangement of the land and the arrangement of the building in which you live are very important. It is important for the living because as long as you live there you are affected by this. It is also important in terms of where the dead are placed. This is the reason for the great amount of geomancy concerned with cemeteries or burial grounds.



Every person, while alive, has three aspects to his vitality. One is sok-lung, which is the actual equivalent of the Sanskrit prana and means your life force and your vitality. The second is la. La is not your soul, it is not your consciousness, and it is not your vitality. Literally, the word la means “above” or “higher,” but I am going to translate it as “spirit.” The third element is consciousness, which is the person’s mind.



The vitality, the physical vitality that keeps a person physically alive, the sok-lung, or prana, ends when the person’s life ends. The consciousness is what proceeds to take rebirth. The la or spirit is what remains behind.



When people see the ghost of the deceased a long time after the person has passed away, which will look like the person and can actually talk, that is the person’s la or spirit. It is not actually the person; the person has gone on to be reborn. It is kind of like an imprint or image of that person’s presence. The la or spirit tends to remain wherever the body is buried. If the body is buried or the remains are kept in a good ground, which is in a ground with a good geomancy, then the person’s spirit flourishes. If the spirit flourishes, this helps their family members and descendants.



Colloquially, this is called, “protection by the spirit of one’s ancestors.” If someone is buried in an inauspicious place or bad ground, then his or her spirit suffers. Through the weakening of that person’s spirit or la, the family members and descendants suffer as well. They suffer because the spirit has no power to protect them, and beyond that, they actually suffer a kind of adversity that will correspond to whatever is lacking or wrong with the ground in which the ancestor was buried. They can suffer various disasters and upheavals, such as lack of prosperity and illness. For that reason, not only the placement of the dwelling of the living, but also the placement of the bodies of the dead, is very important. If you bury a family member in bad ground, it will bring disaster on your family. Even if you bury a domestic animal in bad ground, it will bring disaster on your family. All of this is taught in a tantra by Manjushri, which is called the Tantra of the Chinese Temple. This concludes the first section on geomancy, which is an explanation of the significance of place.



Traditional Sources



The second of the six sections is a statement of the traditional sources for the geomancy that is going to be presented here. The sources for the most part come from two traditions: the Chinese tradition of geomancy and the Indian tradition of geomancy. The Chinese tradition of geomancy that is drawn on here includes the presentations composed by the five forms of Manjushri who were active in emanations in China, as well as the four emanated emperors, Confucius, the four great scholars, and so on. In that way, there are an innumerable number of ancient treatises in Chinese on geomancy. The second source for the tradition of geomancy is Indian, most of which comes from the sutras and tantras in which there is some presentation of what is needed for a proper practice environment. There are commentaries, for example, the Golden Key to Geomancy composed by Padmakara, Guru Rinpoche. These are called “beneficial geomancy,” which means what is positive in the environment and what to look for. There are texts such as the Bum Nak by Gelong Namkhai Nyingpo and others that are called “harmful geomancy.” This does not mean ways to use geomancy to harm others. It means what to avoid in the environment and what to watch out for. There are also a number of works on geomancy composed in Tibet by Machik Lapkyi Drönma in connection with the practice of chö, which covers what types of environments are needed for peaceful chö practice and what environments are needed for wrathful chö practice. Karme Chakme says, “If scriptural quotations from all of these sources were provided to convey each point, it would be too long.”

Karma Chakme’s Mountain Dharma

VOLUME TWO

As taught by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche

Translators:

Lama Yeshe Gyamtso

Chojor Radha

Namgyal Khorko

KTD Publications

https://dharmaebooks.org/karma-chakmes- ... -volume-2/

[Kai lord]

2. Who were the 4 emanated emperors

Since Hong Taiji and his dad, Manchurian emperors generally see themselves as the living incarnations of Manjusri and chakravartins of the world.

During Karma Chakme's lifetime, there were already four emperors that had reigned over Qing Dynasty with Hong Taiji being recognized as the founding emperor.

[Empty Cloud]

2. Who were the 4 emanated emperors

Since Hong Taiji and his dad, Manchurian emperors generally see themselves as the living incarnations of Manjusri and chakravartins of the world.

During Karma Chakme's lifetime, there were already four emperors that had reigned over Qing Dynasty.

Noted. Thank you.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Manchuria

[jmlee369]

2. Who were the 4 emanated emperors

Since Hong Taiji and his dad, Manchurian emperors generally see themselves as the living incarnations of Manjusri and chakravartins of the world.

During Karma Chakme's lifetime, there were already four emperors that had reigned over Qing Dynasty.

Noted. Thank you.

The text is talking about the founding of Chinese geomancy, so the Manchu emperors are too late to be the reference. Jamgon Kongtrul summarised the origins of Chinese astrology as follows:

“The origin of the [science], which is known as element-divination or Sino-Tibetan divination, is China. At the time of the first [Chinese] emperor sPa hu hshi dhi, a commoner living on the seashore offered a gold-colored turtle [to the emperor]. After [the emperor] examined it by way of looking upon it [carefully], the signs of the eight spar kha appeared at the first time in his mind. On the basis of this, works of calculations pertaining to spar kha, sme ba and the twelve year-cycles were composed. On the basis of these, [related] works were composed successively by the incarnated kings, ministers and scholars. There are a lot of texts which appeared later, particularly, ‘Khong spu tsi’, the incarnation of Mañjughosha, who is known as Kong tse ’phrul rgyal in Tibet, also introduced infinite texts about calculation and gTo. The former and the latter [Chinese] princesses first brought the texts of Chinese divination here to Tibet and initiated the [corresponding] system.

source

So the text mentions Confucius was considered one of the Manjushri emanations in later Tibetan tradition.

[Kai lord]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

[Kim O'Hara]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

Not just 'some weird Tibetan interpretation'
https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/ ... asties.htm
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Fu_Xi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi
etc, etc.

Not sure why the word 'commoner' bothers you but he can't have inherited the Emperor's throne.


Kim

[Kai lord]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

Not just 'some weird Tibetan interpretation'
https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/ ... asties.htm
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Fu_Xi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi
etc, etc.

Not sure why the word 'commoner' bothers you but he can't have inherited the Emperor's throne.


Kim

Well if you had read your listed source clearly. You will know that he has an elevated status among the Chinese people. No Chinese will see him as a commoner. And to begin with, he is not even a human, more like a demigod or deva or half dragon dragonian based on mountain sea classics, one of the okd classics in Chinese history.

Fuxi is to the chinese people what adam is to the Abrahamic people and Yama/manu is to the Indians. Just like Yama is a deity that governs the underworld , he is as well.

There was no empire in China at that time, so he can't be an emperor by all historical definitions. The first recognised historical chinese emperor by Chinese and non Chinese scholars, is Qin emperor, Qin Shi Huang

A proper translation of 三皇 is three august ones. Being the progenitor of all chinese prople, he is naturally regarded as the head of the family or clan he fathered, so a ruler of a tribe. He didn't inherit any thrones from anyone because there was simply no one before that came before him.

[Kim O'Hara]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

Not just 'some weird Tibetan interpretation'
https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/ ... asties.htm
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Fu_Xi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi
etc, etc.

Not sure why the word 'commoner' bothers you but he can't have inherited the Emperor's throne. (emphasis added)


Kim

Well if you had read your listed source clearly. You will know that he has an elevated status among the Chinese people. No Chinese will see him as a commoner. And to begin with, he is not even a human, more like a demigod or deva or half dragon dragonian based on mountain sea classics, one of the okd classics in Chinese history.

Fuxi is to the chinese people what adam is to the Abrahamic people and Yama/manu is to the Indians. Just like Yama is a deity that governs the underworld , he is as well.

There was no empire in China at that time, so he can't be an emperor by all historical definitions. The first recognised historical chinese emperor by Chinese and non Chinese scholars, is Qin emperor, Qin Shi Huang

A proper translation of 三皇 is three august ones. Being the progenitor of all chinese prople, he is naturally regarded as the head of the family or clan he fathered, so a ruler of a tribe. He didn't inherit any thrones from anyone because there was simply no one before that came before him. (emphasis added)

'Commoner' is the opposite of 'aristocrat', which is an inherited status, and we agree that he wasn't one. That's why I asked why 'commoner' bothered you.
And I did know the rest of what you said - apart from anything else, it's in the references I posted for you.
I think one of us is struggling with a translation problem, and I think that 'commoner' was the wrong word wherever it entered the discussion.
The verbal shift (translation) from Adamic supernatural being to 'Emperor' is relatively plausible and unproblematic, especially when we remember that human emperors were (almost routinely) deified in China.


Kim

[Varis]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Nowhere does it state that Fu Xi was a commoner.

It states:

a commoner living on the seashore offered a
gold-colored turtle [to the emperor].

You're misreading it completely.

[Kai lord]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Nowhere does it state that Fu Xi was a commoner.

It states:

a commoner living on the seashore offered a
gold-colored turtle [to the emperor].

You're misreading it completely.

A question mark was put at the end for my quoted previous post because I was hoping for some clarification on that statement which comes directly after the comma and his name, not a full stop. Note the red

"At the time of the first [Chinese] emperor sPa hu hshi dhi, a commoner living on the seashore offered a gold-colored turtle [to the emperor]."

To make things more confusing, the guy that directly caught the turtle in the Chinese myth, was Fu Xi himself. Not a third party fisherman. See below

有一天，伏羲在蔡河裏捕魚，捉到一隻白龜，他趕快挖了一個大水池，把白龜養了起來

Nevertheless since the misunderstanding about the commoner is settled. My point about the "emperor" title, still stands.

The verbal shift (translation) from Adamic supernatural being to 'Emperor' is relatively plausible and unproblematic, especially when we remember that human emperors were (almost routinely) deified in China.

Given the size of the Chinese tribe at that time, calling him a Chieftain, would be much more accurate or a Shaman since he was clearly skilled in the arts of divination.

[Empty Cloud]

From China’s “Wikipedia” Baidu Baike:

首领：指某些集团的领导人[1][2]。像中国传说中的“三皇”、“五帝”，实际上都是远古部落联盟首领，不是真正的“帝”或“王”，更不是“皇帝”，但是后人以为他们很杰出而追尊他们为帝王。

https://baike.baidu.com/item/首领/14584224

Chieftian: the leader of an organisation, for example the legendary “three emperors” and “five kings” are actually the leaders of ancient tribes. They are not really emperors or kings. These titles are posthumously given in recognition of their outstanding contributions.

I was going to go with clan leader but chieftian is much better.

[Empty Cloud]

From the Chinese encyclopedia Cihai 辞海 2010

（indecipherable titles omitted)

伏羲氏

神话中人类的始祖。传说人类由他和”女娲氏”兄妹相婚而产生。又传他教民结网。从事鱼猎畜牧，反映中国原始时代开始鱼猎畜牧的情况。传说八卦也出于他的制作。

Fuxi Shi
The mythological progenitor of humanity. Legend has it that humanity was created through the Union of Fuxi and Nuwa, who were (half-)siblings.

He is said to have taught the art of fishing using nets.
He engaged in fishing, hunting, rearing and herding animals reflecting the dawn of the ancient civilisation of China. Also according to legend the eight hexagrams were invented by him.

[Empty Cloud]

And in recent years,
Fuxi and Nuwa have been identified as the Mesopotamian gods as well ala Ancient History channel.

For example, this video here:


But the focus of this thread is on the emanations of Manjushri in China.

[Empty Cloud]

As a survey in attitudes, and perhaps just a matter of perspective, I want to ask if anyone would believe that Guiguzi the brilliant military strategist and teacher of Sunbin and Pangjuan could be an emanation of Manjushri.

Moderators feel free to move this thread to Chinese Mahayana if it is out of place here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiguzi

I mean given that military strategy is necessarily machellivian and these supposed emanations have a historical role.

[Varis]

To make things more confusing, the guy that directly caught the turtle in the Chinese myth, was Fu Xi himself. Not a third party fisherman. See below

There's no singular Chinese Fu Xi myth. In some versions it's a dragon-like creature from which he derives the trigrams and not a turtle. And in the former version he's alerted to the dragon-like creature by a third party.

In the oldest extant Tibetan version it's actually a frog.

[Malcolm]

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

You have no idea how interesting the Tibetan chronicle of the origin of the elemental calculation is. Of course, it is connected with Dzogchen teachings.

[Empty Cloud]

Another titbit on geomancy in China was what Princess Wencheng brought to Tibet.

Treatise on Astrology of the Kaiyuan Era

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatis ... aiyuan_Era

(this piece of information came from Urgyan Tenpa)

[Malcolm]

In the oldest extant Tibetan version it's actually a frog.

No, it is a rus sbal, a "bony frog," i.e., a tortoise.

[Kai lord]

To make things more confusing, the guy that directly caught the turtle in the Chinese myth, was Fu Xi himself. Not a third party fisherman. See below

There's no singular Chinese Fu Xi myth. In some versions it's a dragon-like creature from which he derives the trigrams and not a turtle. And in the former version he's alerted to the dragon-like creature by a third party.

That dragon like creature is the dragon horse or Kirin, which appeared in the Marvel movie called Shang Chi.

Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

You have no idea how interesting the Tibetan chronicle of the origin of the elemental calculation is. Of course, it is connected with Dzogchen teachings.

I truly don't know I Ching is connected with Dzogchen. Although there have been cases of people using the working principles behind I Ching to understand the interdependence nature of various phenomenons and hence Sunyata.