Manjushri in China

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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm
Varis wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:00 pm In the oldest extant Tibetan version it's actually a frog.

No, it is a rus sbal, a "bony frog," i.e., a tortoise.
bony frog :jumping:

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Malcolm
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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:21 pm I truly don't know I Ching is connected with Dzogchen. Although there have been cases of people using the working principles behind I Ching to understand the interdependence nature of various phenomenons and hence Sunyata.
It has nothing to with I Ching, actually. There four kinds of cosmic tortoise in elemental calculation:

There is a cosmic tortoise of the abode, where Mañjuśrī acts a demiurge; cosmic tortoise of the basis, which produces all buddhas and sentient beings; cosmic tortoise of formation; a golden cosmic tortoise of existence (divided in method and wisdom):

It is at this stage for the eight spar kha form:

Next, the manner in which the Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth form the brother and sister elemental sequence, the eight figures marking the body of that tortoise of existence. The mist of the vapor of its mouth along with light produced Grandfather Sky as the pure element appearing as the character ☰ (khen).
The external soil of the tortoise that drips down produced Grandmother Earth as the impure element appearing as the character ☷ (khon).
Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth lay down together in a valley and based on the pillar of earth and sky made by a mountain, the eldest son and first child, Gin (☶), mountain, arose.
Through the condition of wind arising between the rocky mountains, the eldest daughter Zon ☴, wind arose.
Disturbed and spread by the wind, fire blazes, producing the middle daughter, Li (☲).
The wind and fire fight, and since rain falls, the youngest son, Kham (☵) arose as the unclean hunchback water.
Since trees grow between those, the youngest daughter, Zin (☳), wood arose.
Earth melted by fire produces metal, therefore. the middle son, the cutting Dwa (☱), metal arose.

The way in which both Kham and Zin form: After the eldest son, Gin, and the eldest daughter, Zon, reached adulthood, having given rise to desire because of karma, brother mountain Gin circled Meru three times, and the eldest sister Zon circled the ocean. They both were unable to catch the moon, and since it wandered, in that valley where the rough wind of karma arose, in that country of the poisonous female demons (srin mo) called "The Primeval Blue Sky", the brother and sister came together and met without recognizing [one another] and through their incestuous union, Kham and Zin were born from incest.

Through that, after the gods and nāgās of existence fought, the eight classes of mundane gods and demons came from the mating or union of the gods and nāgās. Further, different shapes of their bodies and heads formed. In the same way, from the mating of the gods and demons, the region of the asuras arose in the crevices of Meru. Below it, when [the gods] mated with the nāgās, there formed the deformed paralyzed [zha grum mnol] gods.

Since the gods exhausted their karma, those sentient beings fell into the human lands. and humans arose in the four main continents and the minor continents. And since they exhausted their human karma, also the three lower realms formed. Since birth and death occurs because of the power of affliction, the the six classes of existence of migrating beings is renowned to arise in order, and because of them, the eight trigrams form from the tortoise of existence.


This is all explained in much detail.

Further,

Because the eight trigrams separate because of such conflicts, the so called eight trigrams surround the outside of the golden tortoise. Through the state of their place, each trigram has a disharmonious direction that is like a demon, and also a harmonious direction, thus the eight trigrams are placed on one of the directions of the tortoise. For example, like Khen being attached to the left hind leg of the tortoise and the Mother Khon being attached to the left fore leg, the position of the formation of the symbols of the eight trigrams, clearly demonstrate the positions that occur at the start of many signs of black calculation.

As for Fu Xi:

Further, the first of the ancient kings of China, Sba hu hshi dhī (Fu Xi) saw a golden colored tortoise rise by the side of the ocean, and after examining it, the symbols of the eight trigrams arose in his mind. The calculations of Fire Li trigram is based upon that. Based on that, the kings, ministers and scholars gradually based themselves on that. In particular Confucius, the emanation of Manjughoṣa, known in Tibet as Kong tse ‘phrul rgyal, the instigator the limitless texts of calculation and gto rites and so on, is held to have very many treatises that appeared later on.


There is too much detail to give here, but it all based on the White Sapphire commentary by Desri Sangye Gyatso.
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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:43 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:21 pm I truly don't know I Ching is connected with Dzogchen. Although there have been cases of people using the working principles behind I Ching to understand the interdependence nature of various phenomenons and hence Sunyata.
It has nothing to with I Ching, actually. There four kinds of cosmic tortoise in elemental calculation:

There is a cosmic tortoise of the abode, where Mañjuśrī acts a demiurge; cosmic tortoise of the basis, which produces all buddhas and sentient beings; cosmic tortoise of formation; a golden cosmic tortoise of existence (divided in method and wisdom):

It is at this stage for the eight spar kha form:

Next, the manner in which the Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth form the brother and sister elemental sequence, the eight figures marking the body of that tortoise of existence. The mist of the vapor of its mouth along with light produced Grandfather Sky as the pure element appearing as the character ☰ (khen).
The external soil of the tortoise that drips down produced Grandmother Earth as the impure element appearing as the character ☷ (khon).
Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth lay down together in a valley and based on the pillar of earth and sky made by a mountain, the eldest son and first child, Gin (☶), mountain, arose.
Through the condition of wind arising between the rocky mountains, the eldest daughter Zon ☴, wind arose.
Disturbed and spread by the wind, fire blazes, producing the middle daughter, Li (☲).
The wind and fire fight, and since rain falls, the youngest son, Kham (☵) arose as the unclean hunchback water.
Since trees grow between those, the youngest daughter, Zin (☳), wood arose.
Earth melted by fire produces metal, therefore. the middle son, the cutting Dwa (☱), metal arose.

The way in which both Kham and Zin form: After the eldest son, Gin, and the eldest daughter, Zon, reached adulthood, having given rise to desire because of karma, brother mountain Gin circled Meru three times, and the eldest sister Zon circled the ocean. They both were unable to catch the moon, and since it wandered, in that valley where the rough wind of karma arose, in that country of the poisonous female demons (srin mo) called "The Primeval Blue Sky", the brother and sister came together and met without recognizing [one another] and through their incestuous union, Kham and Zin were born from incest.

Through that, after the gods and nāgās of existence fought, the eight classes of mundane gods and demons came from the mating or union of the gods and nāgās. Further, different shapes of their bodies and heads formed. In the same way, from the mating of the gods and demons, the region of the asuras arose in the crevices of Meru. Below it, when [the gods] mated with the nāgās, there formed the deformed paralyzed [zha grum mnol] gods.

Since the gods exhausted their karma, those sentient beings fell into the human lands. and humans arose in the four main continents and the minor continents. And since they exhausted their human karma, also the three lower realms formed. Since birth and death occurs because of the power of affliction, the the six classes of existence of migrating beings is renowned to arise in order, and because of them, the eight trigrams form from the tortoise of existence.


This is all explained in much detail.

Further,

Because the eight trigrams separate because of such conflicts, the so called eight trigrams surround the outside of the golden tortoise. Through the state of their place, each trigram has a disharmonious direction that is like a demon, and also a harmonious direction, thus the eight trigrams are placed on one of the directions of the tortoise. For example, like Khen being attached to the left hind leg of the tortoise and the Mother Khon being attached to the left fore leg, the position of the formation of the symbols of the eight trigrams, clearly demonstrate the positions that occur at the start of many signs of black calculation.

As for Fu Xi:

Further, the first of the ancient kings of China, Sba hu hshi dhī (Fu Xi) saw a golden colored tortoise rise by the side of the ocean, and after examining it, the symbols of the eight trigrams arose in his mind. The calculations of Fire Li trigram is based upon that. Based on that, the kings, ministers and scholars gradually based themselves on that. In particular Confucius, the emanation of Manjughoṣa, known in Tibet as Kong tse ‘phrul rgyal, the instigator the limitless texts of calculation and gto rites and so on, is held to have very many treatises that appeared later on.


There is too much detail to give here, but it all based on the White Sapphire commentary by Desri Sangye Gyatso.
So the cosmic tortoise of the basis, is linked to Dzogchen?
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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by Virgo »

The tortoise is also an omen of longevity. :popcorn:

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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:02 pm So the cosmic tortoise of the basis, is linked to Dzogchen?
Yes, quite directly, just like Tibetan Medicine of the Four Tantra tradition is connected with Dzogchen.
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Re: Manjushri in China

Post by PeterC »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:21 pm
I truly don't know I Ching is connected with Dzogchen. Although there have been cases of people using the working principles behind I Ching to understand the interdependence nature of various phenomenons and hence Sunyata.
There’s a strand of revisionist study on the origins of the Yi Jing which suggests that all the meaning attributed to it is very far from its original usage. One very interesting study recently published - by a very well regarded young historian, Li Shuo - linked it to rituals for human sacrifice in the Shang. His argument is that archeological evidence makes it pretty clear that human sacrifice was very extensive in the Shang and important to their system of governance (this is not seriously disputed anymore, though it’s not widely discussed) and that in Confucius’ framing of history, the reason he’s constantly praising the rites of Zhou as essential for ruling a kingdom is because he, literally, knows where the bodies are buried. He then goes on to make a connection between the original role of the Yi Jing in ritual and divination and the practice of human sacrifice. He admits that it’s still mostly a hypothesis, because scholarship on the origins of the Yi Jing is pretty thin, but it’s got some legs. I’m still waiting to get a copy of the book - it was only published recently - but we shouldn’t be surprised that very early texts have been given additional meaning over the centuries.
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