the fifth precept, alcohol

[Zhen Li]

The Shin perspective would be not to take these precepts that we are not likely to be able to live up to. It is worse to distort the Dharma and say that the fifth precepts actually does allow intoxicants in small quantities, than it is to admit that we are simply not capable of living up to that standard. If you can uphold the precepts, then by all means do, but if you can't, it doesn't affect your ability to be born in the Pure Land. Just don't twist the words of the Buddha to be convenient—alcohol violates the fifth precept and the bodhisattva precepts prohibit eating meat or the five pungent herbs. If we can't abstain from these, then that's on us: the precepts themselves don't need to answer for themselves.

[Malcolm]

The Shin perspective would be not to take these precepts that we are not likely to be able to live up to. It is worse to distort the Dharma and say that the fifth precepts actually does allow intoxicants in small quantities, than it is to admit that we are simply not capable of living up to that standard. If you can uphold the precepts, then by all means do, but if you can't, it doesn't affect your ability to be born in the Pure Land. Just don't twist the words of the Buddha to be convenient—alcohol violates the fifth precept and the bodhisattva precepts prohibit eating meat or the five pungent herbs. If we can't abstain from these, then that's on us: the precepts themselves don't need to answer for themselves.

The fifth vow is like the second amendment, it has various interpretations. But we can understand it is not at the level of four root precepts, since consuming alcohol for bhikshus, like harming plants or killing animals, requires only confession, with no attached censure or punishments.

Also, it can be adopted or not, according Sarvastivada.

And while there are certainly opinions that “not a single drop” is to be taken, other opinions indicate it us intoxication that is forbidden, not alcohol itself.

[Soma999]

I find interesting perspective in this article :

https://tricycle.org/magazine/fifth-precept/

The fifth precept is not about not taking this or that substance. It is about avoiding intoxication. And we can get intoxicated in a bad way by alcool, but also with fundamentalism and in fact anything that makes us flee our live and responsabilities in a dangerous way.

[seeker242]

It’s still against the precept to have one beer

Well, I guess this is a 'cover all your bases' generic approach without nuance, which does make sense. People who speak of it can do so in a vicarious manner without having to encounter it on a personal level but that's being a bit unfair. Maybe the fifth precept should also cover crystal and smack

It does cover crystal and smack. It covers most all, if not all, recreational drug use, even including more mild drugs like weed. Taking any of that is against the precept. People can do what they want but it's not really wise to try and trick oneself into thinking that you are following it when you aren't. I think it's more unfair to lie to oneself like that. Maybe people think one beer is not a big of a deal but that doesn't really matter because it's still against it regardless of how big of a deal it is. Same goes with all the other precepts. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small. No reason to treat the 5th precept any differently, unless you are really trying to lie to yourself.

[DharmaJunior]

It’s still against the precept to have one beer

Well, I guess this is a 'cover all your bases' generic approach without nuance, which does make sense. People who speak of it can do so in a vicarious manner without having to encounter it on a personal level but that's being a bit unfair. Maybe the fifth precept should also cover crystal and smack

It does cover crystal and smack. It covers most all, if not all, recreational drug use, even including more mild drugs like weed. Taking any of that is against the precept. People can do what they want but it's not really wise to try and trick oneself into thinking that you are following it when you aren't. I think it's more unfair to lie to oneself like that. Maybe people think one beer is not a big of a deal but that doesn't really matter because it's still against it regardless of how big of a deal it is. Same goes with all the other precepts. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small. No reason to treat the 5th precept any differently, unless you are really trying to lie to yourself.

Alright, this is an instant off the cuff remark. Point of reference is very important. You have the soldier and the priest, for example. Priest is conservative female aspect; mother/ protector. Soldier is liberty; where many people sack up and walk that mark. Of course the chances are small of being in an unfavorable situation, but if we're in unfavorable territory (which most of us are) the lessons precede the teaching.

I respect the teaching, but cannot find my way home, even when the signs are quite clear. I apoligize for any frustration caused.

[Malcolm]

. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small.

This is not factual.

[seeker242]

. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small.

This is not factual.

Yes it is.

[Malcolm]

. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small.

This is not factual.

Yes it is.

No, isn’t. Your claim, burden of proof is on you.

[seeker242]

Well, I guess this is a 'cover all your bases' generic approach without nuance, which does make sense. People who speak of it can do so in a vicarious manner without having to encounter it on a personal level but that's being a bit unfair. Maybe the fifth precept should also cover crystal and smack

It does cover crystal and smack. It covers most all, if not all, recreational drug use, even including more mild drugs like weed. Taking any of that is against the precept. People can do what they want but it's not really wise to try and trick oneself into thinking that you are following it when you aren't. I think it's more unfair to lie to oneself like that. Maybe people think one beer is not a big of a deal but that doesn't really matter because it's still against it regardless of how big of a deal it is. Same goes with all the other precepts. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small. No reason to treat the 5th precept any differently, unless you are really trying to lie to yourself.

Alright, this is an instant off the cuff remark. Point of reference is very important. You have the soldier and the priest, for example. Priest is conservative female aspect; mother/ protector. Soldier is liberty; where many people sack up and walk that mark. Of course the chances are small of being in an unfavorable situation, but if we're in unfavorable territory (which most of us are) the lessons precede the teaching.

I respect the teaching, but cannot find my way home, even when the signs are quite clear. I apoligize for any frustration caused.

Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though. Nobody needs to drink beer. There is really no "nuance" when it comes to the 5th precept and alcohol. Either you drink it or you don't. If you do, then that's breaking it. Pretty clear cut.

[DharmaJunior]

Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though.

Exactly, you do not drink so you do not know. So why be concerned? For example, humiliation and shame can be important factors for people involved. Again, while I appreciate your efforts, they come from a different frame of reference. Superiority or higher ground does not make it easier. The holier than thou attitude, has been addressed by other posters in this regard, better than I may do so.

[Malcolm]

Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though. Nobody needs to drink beer. There is really no "nuance" when it comes to the 5th precept and alcohol. Either you drink it or you don't. If you do, then that's breaking it. Pretty clear cut.

Not so. There are many opinions on this in classical texts, and not everyone is in agreement that the precept regards the substance. If the precept is only against the substance, then other intoxicants are not included. If the precept regards intoxicated, then unlike some other drugs, alcohol can be consumed without becoming intoxicated. Also, there is an medical exception, and in Vinaya we find the Buddha administering medicinal alcohol preparations for ill bhikṣus. Likewise, taking psychedelics as a therapy for addiction, PTSD, etc., would not be considered a violation of the vow against becoming intoxication. You see, the vow states that one should not indulge in "madana," which can refer to alcohol, but refers in fact to any intoxicating passion, and in this context, the vow was created in relationship to a bhikṣu who became drunk and broke his vows by having sex with a householder women.

Simplistic reductionism does not help anyone. Likewise with lying. I am quite sure you would readily lie to protect someone or some animal.

[seeker242]

Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though.

Exactly, you do not drink so you do not know. So why be concerned? For example, humiliation and shame can be important factors for people involved. Again, while I appreciate your efforts, they come from a different frame of reference. Superiority or higher ground does not make it easier. The holier than thou attitude, has been addressed by other posters in this regard, better than I may do so.

It's wrong to assume I have never drank beer. In fact, I had one 3 days ago and yes that was breaking the precept, no question about it. It has nothing to do with high and mighty, it has to do with what breaks the precept and what doesn't. I don't lie to myself like some people do, trying to pretend somehow that drinking alcohol is somehow allowed by the precept, it is not.

[DharmaJunior]

Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though.

Exactly, you do not drink so you do not know. So why be concerned? For example, humiliation and shame can be important factors for people involved. Again, while I appreciate your efforts, they come from a different frame of reference. Superiority or higher ground does not make it easier. The holier than thou attitude, has been addressed by other posters in this regard, better than I may do so.

It's wrong to assume I have never drank beer. In fact, I had one 3 days ago and yes that was breaking the precept, no question about it. It has nothing to do with high and mighty, it has to do with what breaks the precept and what doesn't. I don't lie to myself like some people do, trying to pretend somehow that drinking alcohol is somehow allowed by the precept, it is not.

fine love beats smartypants any day of the week.

[Meido]

You see, the vow states that one should not indulge in "madana," which can refer to alcohol, but refers in fact to any intoxicating passion...

In general, this is something like the manner in which it is interpreted in Zen teachings. For example, the precept koans in which the question of substance is of no importance, but any departure from the unified samadhi-prajna is considered an essential breaking of this precept. Having one glass of wine too many, but knowing one is drunk and not doing stupid shit while thus affected, is thus not considered a defacto infraction of the common meaning of the precept.

The "formless precepts" attributed to Bodhidharma aside, many western Zen folks seem more familiar with interpretations of the precepts from other traditions than with Zen ones. But if one examines the inner Zen interpretation of each, it is clear that from that standpoint we are all breaking most of them, all the time. And also that we probably have no idea what's up with other people.

[Könchok Thrinley]

I mean Buddha Shakyamuni gave precepts even to a butcher but with reduced precept about killing, promising not to kill at night. And it still brought benefit. Eight mahayana precepts can be taken for a shorter period than an entire day or even longer and you don't have to take all of them. Clearly the precepts can be tailored to our needs. However, one should strive to do better.

[Soma999]

There are many level of interpretation. What is important is that the precept feeds onés internal life. Otherwise it is nearly useless.

Most of what the precepts say are just common sense for anyone following the dharma in a sincere way.

Of course it is said the precept generates merit. As such, even prostitute can take the precept of no sex when they don’t work, so as to generate merit this way.

But the true benefits of the precept is to understand the deep meaning behind and aligning with it.

For exemple, not killing means also not destroying good ideas or aspiration of someone.

Not stealing is more than common stealing. It is also getting things when you deserve them, at the right time, and with gratitude.

No sexual misconduct is deeper than a question of « wrong holes », but how you turn a biological process into a way to elevate yourself and your partner.

Not lying is more than saying no lies. It is about being true to yourself, honest.

No intoxication is keeping the mind clear. You can drop alcool and completly intoxicate yourself in stupid tv shows.

The form is always dependent of a context, as such, rigidity in the form can bring faults, whereas the essence is always true and following it do not bring any faults.

And so on… follow the essence, be cool with the form.

[mystic_poet]

thanks for the answers, they are all sincere and helpful...

[bowsamic]

One of the reasons I aim for a Pure Land rebirth is that I do not want to give up things like alcohol.

Knowing that I am so attached to such things that I am unable to give them up (there are many many other examples of such things), I rely entirely on Amida's Other Power.

If I could give up things like alcohol in this lifetime, I would be able to practise and work to Buddhahood in this lifetime, so I would not need to rely solely on Amida.

[DharmaJunior]

One of the reasons I aim for a Pure Land rebirth is that I do not want to give up things like alcohol.

I'm just going to say this with confidence. You would (probably) have have that. Alcohol is a cheat code, so quick and easy. Most things (easy) just leads to gloom in my experience. You get a taste of it, and then have to come back for more. Alcohol pretend to be the ticket but ends badly. Anywahy, see you tomorrow, hopefully.

[reiun]

Unfortunately, ignorance, foolishness, or unacknowledged addiction may come into play vis a vis alcohol use.

Ironically, metabolizing the poison in alcohol produces acetaldehyde, a carcinogenic poison.

The following from NIH is lengthy, but drinkers might want to consider the findings. If you are a heavy drinker, you can pm me here if it doesn't/does scare the shit out of you and make you consider counseling, at which time I will recommend counseling.



Alcohol Metabolism: An Update


Drinking heavily puts people at risk for many adverse health consequences, including alcoholism, liver damage, and various cancers. But some people appear to be at greater risk than others for developing these problems. Why do some people drink more than others? And why do some people who drink develop problems, whereas others do not?


Research shows that alcohol use and alcohol-related problems are influenced by individual variations in alcohol metabolism, or the way in which alcohol is broken down and eliminated by the body. Alcohol metabolism is controlled by genetic factors, such as variations in the enzymes that break down alcohol; and environmental factors, such as the amount of alcohol an individual consumes and his or her overall nutrition. Differences in alcohol metabolism may put some people at greater risk for alcohol problems, whereas others may be at least somewhat protected from alcohol’s harmful effects.


This Alcohol Alert describes the basic process involved in the breakdown of alcohol, including how toxic byproducts of alcohol metabolism may lead to problems such as alcoholic liver disease, cancer, and pancreatitis. This Alert also describes populations who may be at particular risk for problems resulting from alcohol metabolism as well as people who may be genetically “protected” from these adverse effects.
THE CHEMICAL BREAKDOWN OF ALCOHOL


Alcohol is metabolized by several processes or pathways. The most common of these pathways involves two enzymes—alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) and aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH). These enzymes help break apart the alcohol molecule, making it possible to eliminate it from the body. First, ADH metabolizes alcohol to acetaldehyde, a highly toxic substance and known carcinogen (1). Then, in a second step, acetaldehyde is further metabolized down to another, less active byproduct called acetate (1), which then is broken down into water and carbon dioxide for easy elimination (2).


Other enzymes—
The enzymes cytochrome P450 2E1 (CYP2E1) and catalase also break down alcohol to acetaldehyde. However, CYP2E1 only is active after a person has consumed large amounts of alcohol, and catalase metabolizes only a small fraction of alcohol in the body (1). Small amounts of alcohol also are removed by interacting with fatty acids to form compounds called fatty acid ethyl esters (FAEEs). These compounds have been shown to contribute to damage to the liver and pancreas (3).
The Chemical Breakdown of Alcohol
The Chemical Breakdown of Alcohol

The chemical name for alcohol is ethanol (CH3CH2OH). The body processes and eliminates ethanol in separate steps. Chemicals called enzymes help to break apart the ethanol molecule into other compounds (or metabolites), which can be processed more easily by the body. Some of these intermediate metabolites can have harmful effects on the body.

Most of the ethanol in the body is broken down in the liver by an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH), which transforms ethanol into a toxic compound called acetaldehyde (CH3CHO), a known carcinogen. However, acetaldehyde is generally short-lived; it is quickly broken down to a less toxic compound called acetate (CH3COO-) by another enzyme called aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH). Acetate then is broken down to carbon dioxide and water, mainly in tissues other than the liver.

Acetaldehyde: a toxic byproduct—Much of the research on alcohol metabolism has focused on an intermediate byproduct that occurs early in the breakdown process—acetaldehyde. Although acetaldehyde is short lived, usually existing in the body only for a brief time before it is further broken down into acetate, it has the potential to cause significant damage. This is particularly evident in the liver, where the bulk of alcohol metabolism takes place (4). Some alcohol metabolism also occurs in other tissues, including the pancreas (3) and the brain, causing damage to cells and tissues (1). Additionally, small amounts of alcohol are metabolized to acetaldehyde in the gastrointestinal tract, exposing these tissues to acetaldehyde’s damaging effects (5).

In addition to its toxic effects, some researchers believe that acetaldehyde may be responsible for some of the behavioral and physiological effects previously attributed to alcohol (6). For example, when acetaldehyde is administered to lab animals, it leads to incoordination, memory impairment, and sleepiness, effects often associated with alcohol (7).

On the other hand, other researchers report that acetaldehyde concentrations in the brain are not high enough to produce these effects (7). This is because the brain has a unique barrier of cells (the blood–brain barrier) that help to protect it from toxic products circulating in the bloodstream. It’s possible, however, that acetaldehyde may be produced in the brain itself when alcohol is metabolized by the enzymes catalase (8,9) and CYP2E1 (10).

THE GENETICS BEHIND METABOLISM
Regardless of how much a person consumes, the body can only metabolize a certain amount of alcohol every hour (2). That amount varies widely among individuals and depends on a range of factors, including liver size (1) and body mass.

In addition, research shows that different people carry different variations of the ADH and ALDH enzymes. These different versions can be traced to variations in the same gene. Some of these enzyme variants work more or less efficiently than others; this means that some people can break down alcohol to acetaldehyde, or acetaldehyde to acetate, more quickly than others. A fast ADH enzyme or a slow ALDH enzyme can cause toxic acetaldehyde to build up in the body, creating dangerous and unpleasant effects that also may affect an individual’s risk for various alcohol-related problems—such as developing alcoholism.

The type of ADH and ALDH an individual carries has been shown to influence how much he or she drinks, which in turn influences his or her risk for developing alcoholism (11). For example, high levels of acetaldehyde make drinking unpleasant, resulting in facial flushing, nausea, and a rapid heart beat. This “flushing” response can occur even when only moderate amounts of alcohol are consumed. Consequently, people who carry gene varieties for fast ADH or slow ALDH, which delay the processing of acetaldehyde in the body, may tend to drink less and are thus somewhat “protected” from alcoholism (although, as discussed later, they may be at greater risk for other health consequences when they do drink).

. . .

HEALTH CONSEQUENCES OF ALCOHOL USE
Alcohol metabolism and cancer—Alcohol consumption can contribute to the risk for developing different cancers, including cancers of the upper respiratory tract, liver, colon or rectum, and breast (19). This occurs in several ways, including through the toxic effects of acetaldehyde (20).

Where Alcohol Metabolism Takes Place
Where Alcohol Metabolism Takes Place
Alcohol is metabolized in the body mainly by the liver. The brain, pancreas, and stomach also metabolize alcohol.

Many heavy drinkers do not develop cancer, and some people who drink only moderately do develop alcohol-related cancers. Research suggests that just as some genes may protect individuals against alcoholism, genetics also may determine how vulnerable an individual is to alcohol’s carcinogenic effects (5).

Ironically, the very genes that protect some people from alcoholism may magnify their vulnerability to alcohol-related cancers. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (21) asserts that acetaldehyde should be classified as a carcinogen. Acetaldehyde promotes cancer in several ways—for example, by interfering with the copying (i.e., replication) of DNA and by inhibiting a process by which the body repairs damaged DNA (5). Studies have shown that people who are exposed to large amounts of acetaldehyde are at greater risk for developing certain cancers, such as cancers of the mouth and throat (5). Although these individuals often are less likely to consume large amounts of alcohol, Seitz and colleagues (5) suggest that when they do drink their risk for developing certain cancers is higher than drinkers who are exposed to less acetaldehyde during alcohol metabolism.

Acetaldehyde is not the only carcinogenic byproduct of alcohol metabolism. When alcohol is metabolized by CYP2E1, highly reactive, oxygen-containing molecules—or reactive oxygen species (ROS)—are produced. ROS can damage proteins and DNA or interact with other substances to create carcinogenic compounds (22).

Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD)—Pregnant women who drink heavily are at even greater risk for problems. Poor nutrition may cause the mother to metabolize alcohol more slowly, exposing the fetus to high levels of alcohol for longer periods of time (23). Increased exposure to alcohol also can prevent the fetus from receiving necessary nutrition through the placenta (24). In rats, maternal malnutrition has been shown to contribute to slow fetal growth, one of the features of FASD, a spectrum of birth defects associated with drinking during pregnancy (23). These findings suggest that managing nutrition in pregnant women who drink may help to reduce the severity of FASD (25).

Alcoholic liver disease—As the chief organ responsible for the breakdown of alcohol, the liver is particularly vulnerable to alcohol metabolism’s effects. More than 90 percent of people who drink heavily develop fatty liver, a type of liver disease. Yet only 20 percent will go on to develop the more severe alcoholic liver disease and liver cirrhosis (26).

Alcoholic pancreatitis—Alcohol metabolism also occurs in the pancreas, exposing this organ to high levels of toxic byproducts such as acetaldehyde and FAEEs (3). Still, less than 10 percent of heavy alcohol users develop alcoholic pancreatitis—a disease that irreversibly destroys the pancreas— suggesting that alcohol consumption alone is not enough to cause the disease. Researchers speculate that environmental factors such as smoking and the amount and pattern of drinking and dietary habits, as well as genetic differences in the way alcohol is metabolized, also contribute to the development of alcoholic pancreatitis, although none of these factors has been definitively linked to the disease (27)